Practical Dread Necromancer build

Hi all, I'm new here but since the release of 4th edition, I've been visiting the wizards of the coast boards less and less.

That said I was hoping to get some advice on building a dread necromancer. Now, I should say that it should be assumed that I don't have to make the most optimized character to hold my own in the party. Still, since the Dread Necromancer is already (slightly) weaker than other classes, I don't want to loose too much.

I should also say that this is a character oriented build. (Though, obviously I'm trying to represent the character with the most powerful build I can, but I'm still not going to compromise the idea for something unrelated but more powerful).

Ok then, now to business. This character, now going by the name of Drakus, was once a farmer in a little hamlet in the middle of nowhere. For various reasons (and it varies depending on what setting he's in and who the DM is) an inquisition came to his hamlet. His wife and three daughters (ages 16, 12, and 2) were burned at the stake before his very eyes. Deciding that the gods were fundamentally evil, he decides to take up the path of necromancy.


I'm considering a number of possible builds for him. The first involves a work-around to get Lord of the Uttercold, but as you'll see has some decided disadvantages. It would require

Arcane Disciple (Fire Domain)
Energy Substitution (Cold)
Lord of the Uttercold.

I'm justifying the Arcane Disciple feat by saying that there are other "divine" beings out there who hate the gods (such as demons and devils). This would let me use a small number of uttercold spells to great advantage but not particularly often.

I've also considered that since the group I'm making this for doesn't have a healer I might want to take:

Arcane Disciple (Healing)
Spontaneous Healer

which (I believe) would let me use all my slots of healing if I chose. It's not particularly in keeping with my character concept, but it's not too far from it either. Actually he would enjoy being able to duplicate one of the most important function of divine magic.

As for prestige classes, if I can't get the DM to sign off on the Dread Necromancers 8th level ability to control more undead to be based of caster level, then I may not bother with one. One the other hand if I can I have a few possibilities in mind.

1) Dread Necromancer/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge
2) Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge (not likely, I know)
3) Dread Necromancer/Wizard/Ultimate Magus
4) Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Ultimate Magus
5) Dread Necromancer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight

number 2 is likely to be ruled against (wasn't there errata to that effect?) but it's included to give a better idea of the character. number 5 needn't have a level of fighter and should probably have something more interesting. Number 1 is what I'm currently leaning towards, but since I'll never get Dark invocations (and utterdark blast is only negative energy/undead healing the warlock gets) I may go another direction.

I'm also considering going (Evolved?) Necropolitan, especially if the above house rule is used to make getting out at level 8 as painless as possible.

Alright then, that's it. I appreciate any and all input and hope to become a useful member of this forum. Thanks in advance for any and all ideas, tip, and constructive criticism.

Erenthia

Try this thread.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515&highlight=dread+necromancer

Erenthia said:

2) Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge (not likely, I know)


number 2 is likely to be ruled against (wasn't there errata to that effect?)

Click to expand...

I hadn't heard about this being errated. Anybody else know about it?

Thanks,
Rich

rgard said:

I hadn't heard about this being errated. Anybody else know about it?

Thanks,
Rich

Click to expand...

What's there to errata? Only problem is qualifying for it, since a dread necro has poor fort saves, so you can't take ur-priest until 9th lv. Thus, the soonest you can take mystic theurge is at lv12, as a dread necro9/ur-priest2.

It is not a total loss though, since the sweet spot for dread necro is at 8th lv.

Runestar said:

What's there to errata? Only problem is qualifying for it, since a dread necro has poor fort saves, so you can't take ur-priest until 9th lv. Thus, the soonest you can take mystic theurge is at lv12, as a dread necro9/ur-priest2.

It is not a total loss though, since the sweet spot for dread necro is at 8th lv.

Click to expand...

It affects other builds. That's why I was curious. I searched the WotC errata and didn't find anything.

Erenthia said:

Hi all, I'm new here but since the release of 4th edition, I've been visiting the wizards of the coast boards less and less.

That said I was hoping to get some advice on building a dread necromancer. Now, I should say that it should be assumed that I don't have to make the most optimized character to hold my own in the party. Still, since the Dread Necromancer is already (slightly) weaker than other classes, I don't want to loose too much.

Click to expand...

It's weaker than other full casters, at any rate. It is, however, still a full caster - with some tricks.

Erenthia said:

I should also say that this is a character oriented build. (Though, obviously I'm trying to represent the character with the most powerful build I can, but I'm still not going to compromise the idea for something unrelated but more powerful).

Ok then, now to business. This character, now going by the name of Drakus, was once a farmer in a little hamlet in the middle of nowhere. For various reasons (and it varies depending on what setting he's in and who the DM is) an inquisition came to his hamlet. His wife and three daughters (ages 16, 12, and 2) were burned at the stake before his very eyes. Deciding that the gods were fundamentally evil, he decides to take up the path of necromancy.


I'm considering a number of possible builds for him. The first involves a work-around to get Lord of the Uttercold, but as you'll see has some decided disadvantages. It would require

Arcane Disciple (Fire Domain)
Energy Substitution (Cold)
Lord of the Uttercold.

I'm justifying the Arcane Disciple feat by saying that there are other "divine" beings out there who hate the gods (such as demons and devils). This would let me use a small number of uttercold spells to great advantage but not particularly often.

I've also considered that since the group I'm making this for doesn't have a healer I might want to take:

Arcane Disciple (Healing)
Spontaneous Healer

which (I believe) would let me use all my slots of healing if I chose. It's not particularly in keeping with my character concept, but it's not too far from it either. Actually he would enjoy being able to duplicate one of the most important function of divine magic.

Click to expand...

Don't even need Spontaneous Healer, really.

Simpler route, though - take Tomb-tainted soul, and require everyone else take it, too. Suddenly your Charnel Touch is a free Cure Light Wounds usable at will, and you can get the stronger healing effects by way of the Inflict and Harm line that's already on your spell list.

Erenthia said:

As for prestige classes, if I can't get the DM to sign off on the Dread Necromancers 8th level ability to control more undead to be based of caster level, then I may not bother with one. One the other hand if I can I have a few possibilities in mind.

1) Dread Necromancer/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge
2) Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge (not likely, I know)
3) Dread Necromancer/Wizard/Ultimate Magus
4) Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Ultimate Magus
5) Dread Necromancer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight

number 2 is likely to be ruled against (wasn't there errata to that effect?) but it's included to give a better idea of the character. number 5 needn't have a level of fighter and should probably have something more interesting. Number 1 is what I'm currently leaning towards, but since I'll never get Dark invocations (and utterdark blast is only negative energy/undead healing the warlock gets) I may go another direction.

Click to expand...

Generally, a Theurge is a bad idea - you're reducing your primary role to get a second role, also at lower effectiveness. Now, if you're playing in a reduced party, and need the second role to balance that, it's not too bad (but there's usually better ways to do it). An Ur-Theurge isn't generally weak, though, the rest of the options aren't particularly mechanically good. To make it work with the Ur-Theurge, you'll need two things:
1) A good Fort save
2) Knoweledge(The Planes) as a class skill for at least one level
3) Probably a decent Intelligence score.

There's a couple of ways to go about that; the Savage Bard (Unearthed Arcana variant Bard) is probably my favorite for making it work.

Erenthia said:

I'm also considering going (Evolved?) Necropolitan, especially if the above house rule is used to make getting out at level 8 as painless as possible.

Click to expand...

You want your Con score. Really, you do.

Erenthia said:

Alright then, that's it. I appreciate any and all input and hope to become a useful member of this forum. Thanks in advance for any and all ideas, tip, and constructive criticism.

Erenthia

Click to expand...

If you plan on going pure dread necro, you can consider dumping your con score, then enter necropolitan ASAP. Then prior to lv20 (since the lich template clearly states that it may not be applied to humanoids), kill yourself and arranged to be raised via true resurrection. Just nice to benefit from the lich template at lv20. This ensures that you don't waste points pumping your con (which while vital at low lvs, is useless at lv20 when you turn undead).

Thanks everyone,

My guess is that it will be a reduced party, and I don't know what the chances are of getting everyone else to burn a feat (especially since the DM might rule against free out of combat healing for everyone). But I'm curious what other ways there are to add a second role (and I hope you're not going to say Leadership, I don't think this DM will allow that feat anymore - but I can ask).

Also if I start off as a necropolitan I pretty much already have everything important from being a lich (and I seriously doubt we'll get to level 20 in this game anyways) so I figured I'd open my Christmas presents early so-to-speak.

That said, I can't see much of a reason to stay with Dread Necromancer past 8th level. If the options I listed aren't any good, what's something else I could shoot for? I don't much care for the pale master though perhaps DreadNecro/Ur-Priest/True Necromancer could work, but I haven't looked into it so I don't know.

Erenthia said:

Thanks everyone,...perhaps DreadNecro/Ur-Priest/True Necromancer could work, but I haven't looked into it so I don't know.

Click to expand...

I haven't looked at it in too much depth, but it sounds like a really cool combination of classes. I think there may be a domain requirement for True Necromancer. I don't have the book handy.

Thanks,
Rich

Part of your build will depend on where you start - there's a lot of builds that are weak to begin with but are much stronger later on (e.g., a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest)-X gets 9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wisdom bonus), and 9th level Arcane spells at 19th. If you're starting at 12th or higher, the Sublime Ur-Theurge has no particular drawbacks (other than a little case of MAD). Starting at 15th or 16th, it's got a slight leg up on most Full Casters (higher level spell access), and at 17th+ it's about even with most Full Casters. Without going Theurge, though, it's weaker than most Full Casters at 17th+, due to the reduced number of spell slots.

Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest is tricky to arrange - it's really difficult to make the Ur-Priest requirements that way. The Ur-Priest requires you have a fair list of skills (some of which are social), so it goes well with a Bard or Rogue (and not so well with the antisocial Dread Necromancer) - but it also requires you have +3 Base Fort and Will saves, which means you'll need a level or two of Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, or similiar in there if you want to get in prior to 9th level.