EoM - Transforming Nature

phloog · Jul 15, 2008

Transform Nature in Elements of Magic allows for the Matter enhancement, which allows you to force Fire, Time, etc. to take on a physical form.

Where I'm confused (okay, one of the many places where I'm confused!) is where this links to the Different Element enhancement.

If I use Transform Nature to allow the Matter Enhancement to turn a fire into a burlap sack...what spell lists does this require, and what enhancements (assuming I want range=touch and 1 min duration)?

Do I need to use BOTH Transform Nature to allow the Matter enhancement and also pay for the Different Element enhancement, or does Matter assume a different element since that's all it does is make a force into matter?

If I use Transform Nature to gain the Matter enhancement, does this incorporate the physical form, or do I have to pay points as I would for Create Nature based on the value of the object, then add 1 MP for Matter?

I realize this question set is getting long, but as an example what would the spell look like to transform a large fire into a natural materials object worth 100 gp? CREATE Nature says this costs 1 MP for the object, so would this apply here?

So would it be 1 point for Matter, 1 MP for the value of the object, for a total of 2 MP to change a fire into such an object (assuming I wanted to risk burning my fingers with a range of touch).

Or would it be 1 point for Matter, 1 point for Different Element (fire to nature), and 1 MP for the value of the item...?

Or is it something different, or impossible to accomplish?

JT

Primitive Screwhead · Jul 18, 2008

I was hoping someone else would chime in

The way I read it, you need both the Matter and Different Element enhancements to change a burning fire into something tangible.

If you do not use the Matter enhancement, our end result is a breif burlap sack shaped mass of flame...which rapidly returns to its natural intangible state.

If you do not use the Different Elements, but use the Matter enhancement, the end result is a flaming sack that you could conceivably put fire resistant stuff into...altho you might need asbestos gloves

So:
Turn fire into Burlap Sack:
Transform: Nature 2
{Matter enhancement 1, Different Element enhancement 1}

This is much more expensive than a simple 'Burlap Sack' spell {Create: Nature 0 }, but has the benefit of temporarily removing a fire... I can imagine a couple of scenarios where this would be useful. Swimming through a short tunnel and needing a fire on the other side, being ambushed and needing to put the fire out quickly...

As for the GP cost, I would rule that the gp cost of the base form is reduced from the gp cost of the final form. In this manner you can take a broadsword and readily turn it into a dagger, but turning a dagger into a broadsword is a bit harder. By the rules, the gp limit is based on the total number of mana spent on Transform: Nature, not an additional cost. As such, this spell already has a limit of 100gp.

phloog · Jul 18, 2008

I have to ask...why were you hoping someone else would answer? Are my questions that dumb?

What you've said made sense - I was reading it differently and likely incorrectly, which was this:

''Matter enhancement is the ONLY way you can turn a force into a substantial thing of any kind - the one point you spend pays to turn the force into the solid - under this interpretation it IS the different element enhancement, but the special case of force to solid'' (this was wrong thinking)

Different element - Costs the same 1 point, and is required to change the element type, but absolutely will not turn a force into a solid.

So by my original thinking wood to stone - different element and 1 MP, water to leather same thing (DiffElem), etc. Each is one point. And Force to cloth - Matter for 1 point, same for Fire to wood.

Where I was getting thrown is I wasn't considering this:

I want a solid fire that I can beat this halfling with.

I was always thinking that the change would be from force to 'thing that is not a force'...you've pointed out that it is reasonable to create a cube of solid fire, which would change the solid nature but would not make it a different element.

Thanks for correcting my limited thinking - it seems silly now.
JT

Primitive Screwhead · Jul 18, 2008

Its just that I haven't been running EoM for a long while now and was fuzzy with the rules... I had to get back to the PDF and reread it a couple times before replying

phloog · Jul 29, 2008

As with a lot of EoM, the DM has to be on guard....

"Bob, I'd like you to put on this burlap executioner's hood"

"Okay...but for how long"

"I only spent 2 MP on Transform and nothing on Gen...so just a minute."