Why all the hype about initiative?

Bluewyrm · Jul 21, 2008

I have been hearing a lot about how important initiative is in 4e, and so far, I just haven't seen it. Since we no longer lose our "dex-bonus" to AC and don't grant combat advantage when we haven't gone yet, I'm not really sure why I see all the fuss. We still get the same amount of actions...

However, I'm inclined to believe what I am reading, as I feel they probably "get it" better than I do. I've not played as much as I suspect many of you have, so maybe there is some experience here I am lacking. So what are some convincing arguments for maximizing initiative in 4e? Just how important is it that we get a chance to use our powers first in the combat? I'd love to hear some examples.

KarinsDad · Jul 21, 2008

There are a few issues here:

1) Monsters have very large initiatives in the book. Most monsters have high Dexes compared to previous editions and many monsters get a +2 or even +4 bonus on top of that.

2) PCs only get a good initiative with a high Dex and/or Improved Initiative/Quickdraw. For many classes, a high Dex is a sub-optimal ability score to make and maintain high.

3) Attacking first decreases the number of enemy actions per encounter. For example, if it takes 5 rounds for a PC Ranger to kill a specific foe and the foe wins initiative, the foe gets 5 attacks before the Ranger kills him. If the foe loses initiative, the foe gets 4 attacks before the Ranger kills him. Over the lifetime of an encounter, this can add up.

4) PC Wizards are more effective if they can target multiple foes early on. Once combat starts and melee opponents get into melee range, it tends to become more difficult for a Wizard to target more than one or two foes at any point in time. It happens, but not as often as in round one unless the DM spreads out his foes every single encounter before the encounter starts. If the Wizard loses init, the 3 foes on the other side of the room might be interspersed amongst the party before the Wizard gets to act.

So effectively, the game system is set up so that most enemies, including minions, get at least one attack in before they die. Winning initiative changes that to an "at least zero attacks in before they die". Granted, most foes last for many rounds in most encounters, but if the PCs win initiative, they tend to also decrease the number of rounds of the encounter.

And, it is not necessarily just one round less of an encounter for winning init. A 12 round encounter can be finished in 9 rounds due to the PCs winning initiative because of other variables. For example, if PC 1 takes out a foe quicker, the PC might not have to stop to take a Second Wind. This in turn allows him to attack instead of healing on a given round which might in turn kill a different foe. It can become a snowball effect.

Bottom line: It's not that winning initiative in 4E is so important, it's that not losing it every single encounter is what is important. With the high monster initiatives, having PCs with high initiative to counter this PC disadvantage can easily save a lot of resources and allow the PCs to have an additional encounter before they need to rest (or allow PCs to not be TPKed in a tight situation). 4E is a game of offense and healing, not defense. Any game element that adds to the overall group offense is good for the group.

James McMurray · Jul 21, 2008

For a wizard it's incredibly important. You need to be able to control the enemy's movement and positioning, and you can't do that if they're faster than you and get up into full combat range before you take your turn.

Dalzig · Jul 21, 2008

Wizard goes before minions. Destroys creatures before they can act.

Rogue goes first. Free sneak attack at range.

Warlock goes first. Can curse minions so boon activates when minion goes boom.

Fighter goes first. Can establish front line farther up.

RigaMortus2 · Jul 21, 2008

I haven't read any "hype" about initiative. Which posts are you referring to? Have a link (i'd like to read and join in the conversation).

Mistwell · Jul 21, 2008

Dalzig said:
Wizard goes before minions. Destroys creatures before they can act.

Depending on level and power selection, a ranged Ranger can do this as well, since about 1 in 5 Ranger powers effect 3 or more foes at once.

Tony Vargas · Jul 21, 2008

It's not as critical as it was in 3e, when who aced the big bad guy (and whether the BBEG got to do /anything/) often came down to initiative, but it's still helpful to go first, if only becuase, ceteris paribus, you end the fight a round early. It's particularly good for some classes, though. Rogues, because they still essentially catch enemies 'flat footed,' Wizards, because they have so many area spells that target 'creatures' rather than 'enemies,' and Rangers & Warlocks to get in 'Prime Shots' and designate desireable curse & hunter's quarry victims early on. Leaders and defenders can often afford to be more reactive.

Initiative, like everything else, adds half your level, so it's not surprising that monster initiatives can get pretty high. In addition to DEX, either quickdraw or improved initiative can give you a bonus (a feat bonus), and the Warlord grants all his allies a stacking +2 bonus to initiative (at Paragon, a feat can boost it higher).

Mengu · Jul 21, 2008

A Wizard or Warlock going first, using an encounter power, spending an action point, and using a Daily power can seriously change the face of a difficult encounter.

A defender who goes at the bottom of the initiative order may have already failed his duty as defender.

Initiative bonuses are quite good to have if you can capitalize on it, though you're still rolling a d20, so the variance will be pretty high whatever you do. A +8 initiative bonus doesn't do much, when you roll a 1.

IMO, if half the party has good initiative bonus, you're in decent shape.