Let's read the entire run

booga said:

I've been lurking and following your thread both here and over there, and I do hope you'll fight it, as tactfully as possible. It was very interesting to compare the perspective of the commenters between the two...not to mention the extra illumination that was being provided in the thread by those who were "there" for the early days.

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I am rather wary about doing so. Lets face it, there are plenty more fora on the internet, and I don't want to get trollish about this. I think the classy thing to do would be to just put the links in my sig, and keep posting normally.
After all, it's already on the top page of their board by number of replies. I think that's sufficient publicity to pique the curiosity of people who would be interested, but don't normally check in here or rpg.net.

It's too bad there seems to be a vocal minority over there who seems to treat any less-than-glowing comment about the early days of D&D as a direct attack on holy scripture, and I say that as someone who's an OD&D/1e enthusiast. I also could not help but notice that their support forum is littered with threads complaining about the specific moderator involved; perhaps you might be able to make headway with one of the others for that section.

In any case, these reviews have inspired me to print off a PDF of more than one old article and incorporate them into our game. Keep it up!

*cloak of lurking re-engaged*

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Thanks for the support. It's funny how the possibility of having something taken away brings people out in support.

(un)reason said:

Aaand they've locked it. Guess my opinions are a bit too far out of sync with the board culture. Vaguely surprised it happened after a month, I'd have thought they'd nuke it straight away or not at all. But then, issue 22 and it's fallout don't reflect well on Gary, do they.

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Lots of thin skins over there, no? It's not like Gary is being bashed left and right in these reviews.

Dragon Issue 124: August 1987

part 4/5

Packing it all away: Encumbrance. If there's one feature that really says D&D is not intended to be a cinematic game, for all the superhuman tricks higher level characters can pull, it's this one. Once you start tracking it in terms of both raw weight, and the inconvenience certain items cause beyond that, due to awkward shape and size, you're well and truly into high crunch territory. And when you make all kinds of different backpacks, and start tracking exactly which item is in which compartment, that's where I start to zone out. Looks like it's a bit of mid-issue filler after all the cool articles to make up space and mollify the realism in gaming people. Not for me, thanks. I'll wait, keep my appetite for the next serving.

The ecology of the gelatenous cube: Ed returns to his familiar stomping ground, to tell another cautionary tale where the focus is on the human drama as much as the monster. Do not mock other wizards in the halls of academia, for they bear grudges a long time, and are willing to go to quite ridiculous lengths for a dramatically appropriate revenge. A pretty short one, this does still give us two very cool illustrations, a formal name for the titular cube, and the usual bunch of mechanical clarifications. Another perfect example of his writing, if a bit formulaic.

The game wizards: More second edition talk this month, as they respond to the quite ridiculous number of letters that are still coming in, including 80 page dissertations and death threats. They're taking this quite seriously, and now have a rough timetable of 2 6 month design phases, with another 6 months of brutal playtesting by the RPGA (sign up now if you want to take part :teeth ting: ) in between. And we'll be keeping you informed every step of the way. Man, that's a lot of time for us to anticipate the new edition. But then, they do seem to be going about this in a very open and careful way, listening to feedback at each step. The days when they would become arrogant and try to give the people what we want to give them, rather than what they ask for are still quite some way away. As further evidence of this, they've just adapted to some new technology that'll enable them to give us higher production values on our modules, at lower prices. How's that for cool? And on top of that, working conditions have improved. They are pretty optimistic at the moment. I guess that's what new management and pulling out from near bankruptcy (which of course, they've never mentioned) does for you. Or is it all a front, and Lorraine ( roll of thunder, stab of organ music) has cut prices by turning things into a virtual sweatshop. As ever, backstage gossip is very much welcome.

Blasters & Blunderbusses: Guns. A fairly familiar topic in this magazine, spanning multiple systems. This particular one is a system free look at the legality of guns in various places and eras. From past to future, and mentioning tons of game systems, this is an interesting, if rather americacentric little article. Owning weapons is something generally restricted in most societies, because governments don't want the population to be able to fight back. But governments aren't that good at keeping up with the advance of technology, so it'll generally be a few years after something is introduced before they get around to trying to regulate it. With a decent biblography (another thing they seem to be including more frequently these days. ) this is another one that goes on the worldbuilding checklist, as weapon regulations are definitely something you should consider when creating your own game. Poor PC's. All they want to do is strut around in heavy armour and kill things. Why should that be a crime?

A shot in the arm: Our Star Frontiers article this month is an adaption of recent D&D ones. Hit location systems. Combined with critical hit systems (and the two do often go together like shoes and socks. ) possibly the single most tiresome recurring thing that people try to introduce, but rarely sticks. This is no exception, adding a load of extra modifiers, an extra roll to many attacks, and a load of nasty extra consequences for being hurt. How very tiresome for me. To their credit, they give info for crits on robots and the common alien races, but it's still of no interest to me, on multiple levels. Please don't waste space doing this for Marvel, Top Secret, Traveller, and the other regulars as well in the next few months.

(un)reason said:

Please don't waste space doing this for Marvel, Top Secret, Traveller, and the other regulars as well in the next few months.

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No worries about Top Secret - it always had hit locations built into the basic game rules.

(un)reason said:

Aaand they've locked it. Guess my opinions are a bit too far out of sync with the board culture. Vaguely surprised it happened after a month, I'd have thought they'd nuke it straight away or not at all. But then, issue 22 and it's fallout don't reflect well on Gary, do they.

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And that locking means I'll just delete the bookmark for Dragonsfoot in my browser.

As much as I love BD&D and AD&D1, that place just takes the love to a whole new level that I just can't reach.

XP coming to you for trying to engage in the discussion with them.

Bullgrit

This conversation is slipping way out of the focus of this thread. Could you guys consider taking the Dragonsfoot angst somewhere else, like it's own thread?

Dragon Issue 124: August 1987

part 5/5

The most secret: Welcome to Top Secret, dual stat style. Or at least, if there was any crunch in this article, it would be. Guess we'll have to wait a few months before the freelancers catch up with the new system. Anyway, this is all about real life top secret research projects. Just the thing to outfit your agents with, or have them try to steal from or sabotage the work of other countries. As this is 20 years ago, much of this is superseded by modern tech, particularly the computer stuff, where we have better in our laptops than an entire building sized machine could do then. But of course, the general principles remain sound. And once again, we have some rather good artwork depicting this stuff. That's definitely one area the magazine is still improving in. This can be applied to both the freewheeling james bond and the meticulous info gathering kind of game, and is a good reminder that is is both dramatically appropriate and realistic for secret agents to have bleeding edge technology to help them out. (unless they're currently going through a period of budget cuts and governmental incompetance ) A pretty decent article.

OGRE celebrates 10 years with a deluxe new edition. Shiny.

The marvel-phile: Here's one of their big guns, for the first time in a while. The incredible hulk, in his new gray form, and the misadventures he's been through recently to change his stats. Plus a load of his normal human associates. Oh, and Rick Jones, teen hulk ( Ahahahaha! ) Welcome to the nightmare that is comic book continuity. Just when you think you're free to live a normal life, marry the girl, ( or get to rule the world if you're a villainous type) everything gets reset, or even worse, and a new plot sweeps you away, forcing you to completely relearn the rules of the game. Or maybe it's all skrulls. Still, at least they have some neat new vehicles and hulkbuster body armour for your characters to steal, so this is a more PC useful entry than most of Jeff's. Overall, another entry that makes entertaining reading, but isn't particularly world shaking.

The role of computers: Black Magic is an arcade adventure game where you use the various spells you acquire to solve puzzles, avoid enemies and progress to the next screen. While initially skeptical, the reviewers are won over by the mix of action and thought required to do well, and became determined to beat the damn thing. Sounds like a recommendation to me.
Realms of Darkness is our main review, some more standard menu controlled RPG fare. Build a party from the usual fare of 8 classes fighty and arcane, equip them, and then embark upon an epic quest to retrieve the macguffin. Unusually, you can split the party. Not so unusually, you must make sure you save as often as possible. While the graphics aren't that great, it's puzzles are very tricky, and it's an epic journey that they still have a long way to go on. Another massive time sink in an era that seems full of them.
They also implement another much desired feature. Hints and solutions. Woo. Once again the magazine moves closer to being the way I remember it. Someone stuck on The bard's tale gets advice on how to get out of a horrible looping room quandary. Looks like they're on the up and expanding their scope some more. Along with the return of roleplaying reviews, this looks like another good trend.

The art of dragonlance? They really are pushing the peripheral aspects of this setting, aren't they. I suppose with so many people buying the books to read, rather than simply as gaming material, they think there's a market for it.

Dragonmirth has things going wrong again. And terrible in-jokes. The Snarfquest crew fills up the 8 month space journey by becoming a rock and roll band. Wormy loses some money, but the people who stole it aren't going to get the chance to enjoy it. :evil laugh:

The Sherlock Holmes solo mysteries? Another interesting advert by I.C.E on the back cover. Ahh, the joys of using public domain properties for your own ends.

A strong issue with quite a few positive changes, plus a well above average themed section. Roger really seems to be coming into his own at the moment, taking the magazine away from Kim's era, both introducing new things, bringing back old ones, and developing a distinct editorial voice of his own, which is definitely more playful and interventionist than Kim's. Just how much more will he shake things up before it settles into a new comfortable pattern? And just how much will he be shaken up in turn by the continuing growing pains of the upcoming edition change? More interesting questions that should be answered in a few months time.

Dyson Logos said:

This conversation is slipping way out of the focus of this thread. Could you guys consider taking the Dragonsfoot angst somewhere else, like it's own thread?

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What, 6 posts is too much clutter for you. Still, point taken. I have no desire to engage in angst or get banned here or there for starting a cross forum flamewar.

Moving swiftly on then, where should I go next? Since we're over a third of the way through now, I'm inclining towards putting them up on one of the social networking site blogs. One thing we have found with forum posts is that debate on older stuff tends to die out pretty quickly as new posts come up. In a place with a forking thread comment format, this would be less of a problem. Anyone have any recommendations/preferences?

Dragon Issue 125: September 1987

part 1/5

108 pages You dismiss Dark Dungeons? Fool! Do you not realize the power of Jack Chick! You wallow in sin every day, to the point where you no longer even notice how you desecrate the minds of innocents with your every word!!! Your soul is destined for the pit, and I only pray that you will not drag too many people in as you go!!!! Um, yeah. Roger delivers an entertaining editorial, that in hindsight dismisses a potential problem too quickly. He may come to regret that. In the meantime, this issue's special feature is Chivalry. For those of you who'd prefer characters with a little more class than the flaming oil throwing, backstabbing, sleep (both the spell, and the frequent rests) happy reprobates that manage to delve dungeons and survive. Another topic that they've tackled before a few times, but never done a full-on special on. (and hopefully will leave alone for a few years after this) Lets see if they can take this to the next level like they should.

In this issue:

Letters: A letter in praise of Wormy. By amazing co-incidence, it's also his hundredth strip this issue. Pop the champagne, and prepare a special feature to celebrate our longest running comic.
A letter complaining that religion should not be proscribed in D&D. Yes, but putting real world ones in fantasy worlds without any explanation or adaption does look a bit dumb. This is a topic that's gonna provoke flames whatever you do.
A letter asking for a copy of the Fineous Treasury. Unfortunately, it's been 6 years, JD is no longer in touch with them, and it's all out of print. You'll have to search second hand places untill ebay comes out.

Forum: SD Anderson presents another simple way of making mass saving throws. Just use the averages. The simple solutions are often the most effective, especially if you just want to get on with the story.
Andy Wright plays the role of sage, to gives us some more conflicting stories about the mating habits of harpies. It's all very amusing, and a quite different use of the forum to the usual.
Edward R Friedlander calls on the creation of blisters via purely psychosomatic means. As an assistant professor of pathology, he can say with reasonable confidence that this is an urban myth. While illusions may be able to accomplish more in a fantasy game, you shouldn't confuse fantasy with the real facts.
Richard Pike-Brown is in favour of manipulation of money, and creating various currencies for your games. And screwing over players in the exchange rate doesn't hurt either. Muahahaha.
Loring A Windblad points out that most real world "barbarians" are small, tough, and canny, rather than giant thewed, oiled weightlifters. That is not optimal for hunting game and living off the land, because those overinflated muscles require a lot of extra food and sleep to maintain. A very valid point, but most players would rather stick with the Arnie as Conan stereotype.
Tom James thinks that D&D and AD&D are closer than a lot of people say. Both are flexible, and both can get pretty complex when you include a load of the optional add-ons. Compared to most other games, you are probably right.
Chuck Ambum is rather conflicted about the new Top Secret edition. In some ways, he preferred it when you had to meticulously plan out a mission, and there was tons of crunch and a small margin of error. And introducing alignment to a modern day game is just dumb. There may be some improvements, but it's still problematic.
Dennis McLaughlin is also uncomfortable about certain trends in Top Secret, namely the new addition of heavier weaponry and lunar stuff. I thought this was an espionage game, not a military one. Looks like their pursuit of bigger, louder, faster, shinier is indeed starting to alienate a chunk of the existing fanbase. Question is, will it also draw in new people to replace them, or will this send the game into decline? Since it was pretty much gone by the time I started, I have to say I'm not optimistic.

Yeah, the TS/SI game in particular got militarized with an actual military-based campaign book for the game. (Commando was the name, I think).

The original TS game remains to this day one of the best games for gun fetishists, as each and every gun is different in a myriad of tiny ways. And even better, most of the differences mean very little in game play (this one gets +3% to hit overall, but has an additional -4% to hit at medium range compared to the other one...)

The one thing TS/SI got right though was the modernized conflict system. Instead of three bizarrely different subsystems to handle contacts, melee & firearms, it all runs on basically one unified mechanic. Something I'm using as the basis for Espionage '88 - my rebuild of the original Top Secret rules.