New Discussion Thread

Atanatotatos · Sep 23, 2008

renau1g said:
I think that it works against the 1/5 value idea, if you were to sell that sword of yours you'd only get 1/5 of the price, but if you trade it you get 100%. (not saying I 100% agree with it, but that's my thinking of the rationale)

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Do you, as a DM in a normal campaign, restrict trading among players?
Or the cration ritual? That saves 100% of the value too.

stonegod · Sep 23, 2008

garyh said:
Any LEW/LEB veterans who can comment on how item trading works (or doesn't) in those games?

Can't speak to LEW, but in LEB, trading IC is by DM allowance. Post-trades are made in the tavern thread usually between two PCs (not of the same player, of course). In theory, there is nothing barring a 10th level PC from giving a 1st a big honking magic item other than the questionable benefit to the 10th level PC. It also means that the 1st level PC generally would get less split of the loot (afterall, they already have the Sword of Awesomeness).

There are LEW for PC run shops; I'll look them up later.

covaithe · Sep 23, 2008

Trading outside of adventures in LEW is done in character, either in the tavern or in "shop" threads run by players with item creation feats. There aren't any restrictions on the trading, except that you can't trade with other characters you play. (And you can't use an intermediary, either; no "My fighter gives your wizard this crown of intellect, and your cleric gives my rogue the gloves of dex" trades.) Judges watch those threads, and while there's no approval per se, they would step in if needed to prevent abuse. There's nothing preventing high-level characters from handing down their used equipment, but it doesn't seem to happen very often. I think I remember a set of non-magical chainmail being handed down once, but that's the only instance I can remember in the last few years.

The situation is a bit different there, though, since item creation feats are a real money-maker for some characters, and that's built into the system. Wizards need lots of cash for spells, so they take the Craft Wondrous Item feat and make gauntlets of strength for the fighter in their group, making a nice profit but saving the fighter a big chunk off the list price. 3.5 encourages a player-based economy, and so LEW encourages it.

That kind of economy in 4e is very limited. About the only case I can think of that we need to consider is hand-me-down equipment. If someday Quagmire reaches 10th level and decides to get rid of his +1 lightning battleaxe, he could demagickify it and get 200g or sell it to Noobicus, a 2nd level character with 500g to spend. Both characters get something pretty useful out of the deal. Is it unbalancing? To be honest, I'm not sure. I'm inclined to think it's not -- yes, later characters might be able to get a bit more power early on than characters starting now, but as power creep goes, that's likely to be the least of our worries. I'm sure that feats and classes from new sourcebooks are going to have far worse balance issues.

I'm interested to hear more opinions on this, especially from people who understand the magic item system better than I do. Which doesn't take much.

hafrogman · Sep 23, 2008

Atanatotatos said:
I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Do you, as a DM in a normal campaign, restrict trading among players?
Or the cration ritual? That saves 100% of the value too.

renau1g did indeed understand my reasoning.

In a single party campaign, items may get traded among characters, to the benefit of the group. But once everyone has a +2 weapon, the +1 sword that the fighter used to use eventually gets filtered out as 1/5th value, as do any other +1 items that show up.

In a living game, once I get a +2 sword, I want to sell my +1 sword. If I sell it according to the standard game economy, I get 1/5th the value. If instead I sell it to a lower level character for say, 1/2 value; then he and I have both benefited. I have more money, I'm closer to my +3 sword. He has his +1 sword, and half the gold left over from what he would have spent if he'd bought it in a shop. Now we have two characters that are richer than they should be. Obviously not by much, and its not very important, but magnify it over all the players, over a long period of time and it could become significant.

The difference between a living campaign and a standard game is the possibility for regular interaction between characters of differing power levels.

Now I will admit that I do not own, and have not read the 4e DMG, so if the item distribution guidelines will prevent this kind of thing from ever being important, then I apologize for bringing it up.

Atanatotatos · Sep 23, 2008

hafrogman said:
renau1g did indeed understand my reasoning.

In a single party campaign, items may get traded among characters, to the benefit of the group. But once everyone has a +2 weapon, the +1 sword that the fighter used to use eventually gets filtered out as 1/5th value, as do any other +1 items that show up.

In a living game, once I get a +2 sword, I want to sell my +1 sword. If I sell it according to the standard game economy, I get 1/5th the value. If instead I sell it to a lower level character for say, 1/2 value; then he and I have both benefited. I have more money, I'm closer to my +3 sword. He has his +1 sword, and half the gold left over from what he would have spent if he'd bought it in a shop. Now we have two characters that are richer than they should be. Obviously not by much, and its not very important, but magnify it over all the players, over a long period of time and it could become significant.

The difference between a living campaign and a standard game is the possibility for regular interaction between characters of differing power levels.

Now I will admit that I do not own, and have not read the 4e DMG, so if the item distribution guidelines will prevent this kind of thing from ever being important, then I apologize for bringing it up.

Wrong. Because if a character is "richer" than he should, his next DM will have the common sense (that the judges will advice for) to keep his rewards under control.

Voda Vosa · Sep 23, 2008

hafrogman has a point there, I can't argue that, but I fail to see why that can be a bad thing. I mean, it's like real life, you bought a used up sword, for half price, but it's not shiny and has someone else name on it. If you are fine with that, then you save some coins.
If trading must be IC there could be not just one player wanting the +1 used sword. That can open the door for some interesting role play situations that are only seen in living worlds.
A possibloe solution to the enrichment of the players that trade weapons, its a "worn" effect. Let me clarify (Damn english phrases building!). After some time, weapons worn off, and lose some of their attributes. A sword loose it's sharpness and don't deal the same amount of damage a sharpened sword does, for example.
If after, say two trades, the weapon deteriorates and loose its value, then it exits the system of trade. That would reduce the amount of players that benefit from a single weapon.
Of course there should be someone tracking all this...
My head hurts, I'll go to sleep an hour or two...

KenHood · Sep 23, 2008

You've got a place for the proles to mingle...

Being the player of a snobbish, upper crust character, I was wondering if we could add a "Gentle-Being's Club" thread in parallel to the Tavern Thread.

Like the traditional gentleman's club, the gentle-being's club would service middle to upper class folk with a pedigree or modestly monied state. It does not feature public entertainments, but functions as a "second home" for its clientele, giving them a place for parlor games, food, and drink. It would serve a more "high-browed" fare - fine brandy, rare coffees, and so forth. One travels there for witty repartee and reading of literature. (Much like the club in which Mycroft Holmes dwells.)

I suggest the name: The Gilded Arrow -- "Gold" and "Arrow" since the place would have more of an Appollonian atmosphere.

The place could be guarded by a powerful arch-angel bouncer, to cast out the riff-raff -- such as orcs, minotaurs, goblins, githyanki, warlocks...

renau1g · Sep 24, 2008

It would be too lonely in there....

Just you and that arch-angel.

I think the purpose of the tavern is for DM's to draft their PC's from for adventures and generally build up the community as a whole by interacting with fellow PC's even if you don't adventure with them, it generates a more living feel. My thoughts are that such a thread is a fun idea in theory, but then it opens the door to additional problems... i.e. if one PC thinks his place of relaxing is at a brothel we probably don't want to set up another thread for that as well.

Maybe there's a high-roller area in the tavern? That way you're still in the thread, but could enjoy that cognac with fellow debonairs.

Phoenix8008 · Sep 24, 2008

renau1g said:
Maybe there's a high-roller area in the tavern? That way you're still in the thread, but could enjoy that cognac with fellow debonairs.

This was my first thought as well. You can describe another area within the Inn and say you are in the private booths or whatever and if an employer comes in you can say some servant boy comes in to inform the 'gentlemen' of the business opportunity in the offing.

Graf · Sep 24, 2008

I think the magic item situation is really complex. What if a 1st level character gets their hands on an 8th level weapon?
Is their DM supposed to "balance" that out by giving everyone 8th level weapons? What happens when those characters go on to other games? Are those DMs supposed to hand out 8th level items?

Is 8th level equipment the new 1st level? Do we then "lock" those characters and keep them from getting new weapons until they get up to a much higher level?

I think the 1/5 cost thing is a fairly important balancing mechanism.

We have a system in place that "levels up" magic items if people haven't got the right ones for their level (I think we agreed it was "the gods") there is nothing that says they don't downgrade magic items either.

[d]--[/d]

I think having the Gilded Arrow; a private establishment connected to the Hanged Man, is an excellent idea. Perhaps it was founded by Mauros Esthanapiros (who thought the Hanged Man was "dreary and distasteful" and refused to set foot in it -- nobles who are attracted to the Hanged Man, but don't actually want to go inside go lurk their and soak up the "dangerous atmosphere").
(We have a monster filled pirate bar on another island connected by a portal; this would be eminently less of a stretch)

(I've been using Mauros to justify for everything recently...)

I -don't- think that an actual arch-angel works though. Maybe we could arrange for a particularly well groomed Minotaur (a relation of Faun's and Brudd's... so the rougher customers don't mess with him)?