On the discussion on what part of the game should be challenging I think the ony answer can be the creativity of the girls and guys sitting around the table. Sometimes that should be a question about what is the best tactical sollution to a battle, sometimes it is about what the crazy dwarf they are playing would actually do when the king insults him. But the real challenge of d&d game is always for the players to move the game forward by not just responding to the challenges of the DM but adding their own creativity. That means the DM should not only focus on challenging his players to the max but also on leaving room for the the players to challenge eachother and the DM.
Challenge the Players, Not the Characters' Stats
Here is where I grow confused at your point. What about 4E prevents someone from running a game based on puzzles and creative solutions, or challenges focused around player skill? Many aspects seem to reward player skill, in fact - the greater emphasis on tactics in combat (over the 'stats (and pre-buffs) are the be-all and end-all' approach of 3.5), the encouragement for characters to take creative actions (and a useful system for the DM handling such stunts), and the removal of spells that functioned as 'insta-solutions' to all problems.
I mean, the quote itself is a reasonable preference... I just don't see how this is missing from 4E in any way. To be fair, the only other editions I've played were 2nd Ed and 3rd Edition, so there might be something unique to 1e that I'm not familiar with... but I find the game more geared towards player choices (over character abilities) than ever before.
Sure... but the goal in that isn't to challenge or create interesting play, it's to allow the players to feel like he or she is good at stuff they actually aren't, and I think there should be place for that in a game about pretending to be mighty warriors and powerful wizards.
robconley
Hero
The use of skill rolls for a random element is the biggest reason I use Character Stats and Skills. There are two benefits here. First you can make characters that considerably better or worse in various areas. Second even the best fail at trivial tasks and worst succeed at impossible tasks. Third it allows a player to judge the odds for the situation. In the above example what William decides to do when he needs a 8 or better will be very different than if he needed a 18 or better (using a d20), plus he doesn't have to try to guess what going on in my head.
Rather then just a single roll I break the action down into its components because that helps with immersion. Immersion is an important goal for me when running my campaigns. Most players like to be immersed into the character and setting they are playing.
Most actions however don't need a roll even if there is an applicable skills. If the character is under stress or there are consequences for failure then Skill rolls are called for.
I blog more about the issue here Bat in the Attic: Old School Essence
Rather then just a single roll I break the action down into its components because that helps with immersion. Immersion is an important goal for me when running my campaigns. Most players like to be immersed into the character and setting they are playing.
Most actions however don't need a roll even if there is an applicable skills. If the character is under stress or there are consequences for failure then Skill rolls are called for.
I blog more about the issue here Bat in the Attic: Old School Essence
MrMyth:
Probably the default assumption of 4th edition that you don't need to play through a skill challenge, but can just roll the dice through it, and then IF every party member fails you would need to worry with thinking through it.
The rules give option, but it is up to player to pick which option to use, and tell me how new younger players will look at it? I have seen a few that just say things like "What skill do I need to roll for" when faced with a skill challenge, before even given any information about it.
Why should the DM ever describe a challenge, when all you need is some number to combare a series of die rolls to?
How much of 4th now can be done by JUST rolling dice?
Nothing that is achieved by rolling dice challenges the players nor the character, it only challenges the player luck.
While it may be better to have story related puzzles, there is nothing that says you can't have logic puzzles to challenge the player int he game and have them somehow be something else in the story, or even the exact same logic puzzle in the game.
The player thinks for the character, so take the entrance to Moria "Speak friend and enter".
Frodo, not Gandalf solved the puzzle. Which would you figure to have greater knowledge based stats about magic doors, dwarves, elves, etc? Gandalf who has been around, or Frodo who has only heard some stories from Gandalf's visits and Bilbo's stories.
Maybe Frodo got a lucky roll of the dice, or the player just had an idea that transcends the characters stats.
4th edition relies heavily on stat management and dice rolling to make the game easier and more streamlined. It doesn't mean you cannot include the other things, but they are not given to the players as option for those new to the game are they?
What are the rules in the PHB for skill challenges? What is in the PHB are the player expectations, and what is in the DMG is where a disconnect can happen if the same type of information is not given to both. The DM could likely forget the PHB doesn't explain as much about the game as the DMG does.
One reason I like the Rules Cyclopedia. A single book for all players so everyone knows the same information about the game, and the players just have to hold knowledge they shouldn't use in reserve with the player will power.
If I am playing and given a puzzle to solve, and want to actually solve it and another player rolls some dice to get us past it, without letting me enjoy solving the puzzle, I will get up and leave the game not to return. They can do thing they normally couldn't but not at the expense of other players enjoyment of the game.
Probably the default assumption of 4th edition that you don't need to play through a skill challenge, but can just roll the dice through it, and then IF every party member fails you would need to worry with thinking through it.
The rules give option, but it is up to player to pick which option to use, and tell me how new younger players will look at it? I have seen a few that just say things like "What skill do I need to roll for" when faced with a skill challenge, before even given any information about it.
Why should the DM ever describe a challenge, when all you need is some number to combare a series of die rolls to?
How much of 4th now can be done by JUST rolling dice?
Nothing that is achieved by rolling dice challenges the players nor the character, it only challenges the player luck.
While it may be better to have story related puzzles, there is nothing that says you can't have logic puzzles to challenge the player int he game and have them somehow be something else in the story, or even the exact same logic puzzle in the game.
The player thinks for the character, so take the entrance to Moria "Speak friend and enter".
Frodo, not Gandalf solved the puzzle. Which would you figure to have greater knowledge based stats about magic doors, dwarves, elves, etc? Gandalf who has been around, or Frodo who has only heard some stories from Gandalf's visits and Bilbo's stories.
Maybe Frodo got a lucky roll of the dice, or the player just had an idea that transcends the characters stats.
4th edition relies heavily on stat management and dice rolling to make the game easier and more streamlined. It doesn't mean you cannot include the other things, but they are not given to the players as option for those new to the game are they?
What are the rules in the PHB for skill challenges? What is in the PHB are the player expectations, and what is in the DMG is where a disconnect can happen if the same type of information is not given to both. The DM could likely forget the PHB doesn't explain as much about the game as the DMG does.
One reason I like the Rules Cyclopedia. A single book for all players so everyone knows the same information about the game, and the players just have to hold knowledge they shouldn't use in reserve with the player will power.
If I am playing and given a puzzle to solve, and want to actually solve it and another player rolls some dice to get us past it, without letting me enjoy solving the puzzle, I will get up and leave the game not to return. They can do thing they normally couldn't but not at the expense of other players enjoyment of the game.
)What I'm suggesting is to compromise. Sometimes do it your way, other times, do it theirs.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
My process? I keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate.
If Verys falls unconscious, and then it is revealed that Krunk is a doppelganger, and then Verys wakes up? I know Krunk is a doppelganger, but Verys doesn't.
If Krunk goes up to the corner and looks around it, and sees an army of werewolves, I know there's an army of werewolves around the corner, but Verys doesn't, so Verys doesn't immediately start loading silver bullets.
If the DM mentions King Royalia, whom I've never heard of, I can ask "Does Verys know who that is?", because even though I don't know, Verys might.
You suggested that you don't keep player and character knowledge separate. To me, that means that either a/ Verys knows Krunk is a doppelganger because you do, or b/ the DM has to ensure that you don't know Krunk is a doppelganger until Verys does. Anything else requires keeping player and character knowledge separate.
-Hyp.
Silvercat Moonpaw
Adventurer
How does a system model comparasons of skill if it doesn't have a mechanical way of modifying the random element that the dice roll represents?
So you're saying people should never join an activity because they might be required to do something which they just cannot manage no matter how often they are made to try? I completely agree with that idea, but it's a hopeless dream.
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The problem is that I like puzzle solving and is a reason I enjoy RPGs. If someone else solves it before me, then that is fine, but if dice do it that will make me very unhappy.
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