Megadungeon Sandbox and 4E

Nate, see some of my earlier posts about using treasure parcels equivalently. Basically, there are a few ways to resolve your concerns while still using parcels (although you can also just as easily use TMT, please don't take this as criticism, merely elaborating on how one can use parcels).

So if you dislike having encounters with no treasure, 10 parcels = 10 encounters in a level. If you're concerned about players catching on that there is "no more treasure on this floor", then I would say simply don't do that. This goes back to my equivalence of parcels idea. You can do it for gold too, but let's stick to magic items for simplicity. At level 1 you hand out magic items levels 2-5, and at level 2 you hand out magic items levels 3-6. This means that magic items of level 3, 4, or 5 could potentially show up in either parcel.

If the players increase to level 2 but remain on floor 1 and fight challenges averaged around a level 1 party, start handing out the level 2 parcels that could have been level 1 parcels. you have at least 3 magic items, and some of the gold values should be comperable as well besides the lowest gold from 1 and the highest gold from 2 (possibly more, but you get the idea.). When you finally run out of things from level 2 parcels, if you absolutely must, move on to level 3, that should be a level 4 and 5 item, plus any gold.

When you finally run out of options, then you should DEFINITELY stop giving out treasure. It is likely a good idea to do it sooner than that.

*bump!*

This is a fantastic thread, btw.

My MD is coming along nicely...

I'm new to this trhead and loving it (so much in fcat that I am about to be late for work- good thing I am the boss). It seems a lot of discussion has been spent on what happens when characters level up, but don't descend deeper into the mega dungeon.

I think I would handle this by converting wandering monsters into static encounters in a way that brings level appropriate encounters to the PCs without breaking believability.

For example as the PCs are working to purge the first level of the dungeon, increasing numbers of monsters from the second level of the dungeon will come up to see what is going on (and why there easy food source is so quickly becoming depleted). Likewise, even larger numbers of those second level monsters might descend to the third level of the dungeon (again, perhaps, in search of food).

This creates a situation in which second level encounters start coming to the PCs on level 1. The PCs then find a level 2 that is mostly deserted (except for nasty traps without treasure) that serves to spur them on to level 3 (which hopefully is level appropriate at this point). Finally, level 3 has been reinforced with a few larger groups from level 2 that, because of their increased size, are hopefully appropriate challenges for the characters.

Chad

Very happy to see this thread bumped. I wanted to bump it for a long time but I was the last poster so I didn't want to be too overt about it. In regards to random encounters I'd like to get a little more mathy without biting off too much work for me

First, it's easy to justify increasing the level of random monsters as the party levels up. Clearly they're killing off/clearing out part of the dungeon and potentially raising alarms. Of course, the choice is yours should you decide you would rather let floor = encounter level. I'm going to use mostly small dice for this as an example of how one might make a decent set of random encounter tables. These borrow from a concept I read in mike mearls' blog about using wide rather than tall tables.

Ok so to start, pick a level, either based on the party or based on the floor. Take the result from that roll, and roll from each table it proscribes. This second layer of tables is based on similar xp values:

Level tables
Level 1: 1d6
1: roll twice from 200XP (easy)
2: roll twice from 200XP, once from 100XP (normal)
3: roll once from 300XP, once from 200XP (normal)
4: roll twice from 250XP (normal)
5: roll once from 200XP, twice from 100XP, once from 125 XP (normal+25)
6: roll once from 300XP, once from 200XP, once from 125 XP (hard)

Level 2: 1d6
1: 250XP twice (e)
2: 375XP and 250XP
3: 375XP and 125XP twice
4: 300XP and 200XP and 125XP
5: 250XP twice and 100XP twice (h-50)
6: 375XP twice (h)


XP tables

100XP: 1d4

1: 1 Goblin Skirmisher
2: 1 Kobold Slinger
3: 1 Goblin Blackblade
4: 4 Goblin Cutter


125XP: 1d4

1: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2: 1 Guard Drake
3: 1 Kobold Dragonshield
4: 4 Human Rabble

200XP: 1d4
1: 2 Stormclaw Scorpion
2: 2 Goblin Warrior
3: 2 Kobold Skirmisher
4: 8 Decrepit Skeleton

250XP: 1d4
1: 2 Zombie
2: 2 Gray Wolf
3: 1 Elf Archer + 4 Human Rabble
4: 8 Kruthik Hatchling

300XP: 1d4
1: 2 Zombie + 2 decrepit skeleton
2: 2 Goblin Skullcleaver
3: 1 Kobold Wyrmpriest + 2 Kobold Minion + 1 Kobold Skirmisher
4: 1 Ochre Jelly

375XP: 1d4
1: 3 Elf Scout
2: 1 Hobgoblin Warcaster + 1 Hobgoblin Mercenary + 1 Goblin Blackblade
3: 1 Human Gaurd + 1 Human Bandit + 1 Fire Beetle
4: 2 Hobgoblin Grunt + 2 Hobgoblin Archer

End of Tables

Obviously I went with very small die sizes to keep from going overboard, and limited myself to two levels. Also I picked XP values as the titles for tables to make my intentions clear, but it may be easier to give them generic titles like "1-1" or "1-3" for "Level-NumberOfMonsters". Naturally you could add another layer by actually dividing out the different races rather than letting them end up mixed up all willy-nilly (might be a bit odd to have elves and kobolds working together) to increase the options, or just use a bigger die than d4. Near the end I started getting creative with XP totals with some tricks such as 3+2+1 gives you the same total as 3 2s, or combining a pair of 3s with a pair of 3 minions (off by only 1xp).

There is a lot of flexibility here, allowing you, the DM, to come up with some interesting (and decidedly random) wandering monster encounters. If you were particularly attached to the "sandbox" mentality, you might even make a large enough table of monsters, then strike out each entry of monsters as the players defeat them, essentially creating a more mobile form of "clearing out the dungeon". You might even concoct scenarios such as "monsters escape and warn others" or "the great relic has been stolen and the alarm is sounded" to justify rolling additional times or re-introducing previously defeated monsters.

A final note: the tables as written are intended to allow you to generate a complete, level appropriate, encounter for 5 PCs. Obviously you can mix and match for more or fewer PCs, but if you are subscribing to the "wandering monsters dogpile" method of making wandering monsters more dangerous, just decide how much XP you'll add to an existing encounter and then roll. Example, if the PCs encounter a level 1 encounter and you want to make it more difficult by a single level, roll from the 125xp table (the difference between 500xp and 625 xp). Or, if you only have 4 PCs, roll from the 100XP table (to go from 400XP to 500XP).

Hope this gets some more gears turning!

How prevalent do you guys think traps should be in a MegaDungeon?

Lots of them, scattered around?
A few, here and there?
A lot in special, trap-focused areas?

etc?

Grimstaff said:

How prevalent do you guys think traps should be in a MegaDungeon?

Lots of them, scattered around?
A few, here and there?
A lot in special, trap-focused areas?

etc?

Click to expand...

IMO "traps" that serve as obstacles (open pits or crevasses, portcullises, chutes, shifting walls or rooms, one-way doors, teleporters, elevator rooms, etc.) should be pretty common, and are a big part of why when you go into a megadungeon you can't always count on just being able to retrace your steps in order to get out. The idea of being lost in the dungeon with no idea how you're going to get out and hoping you can find an exit before you run out of supplies (torches, food & water, hit points) is a very big part of the "megadungeon experience" and shouldn't be discounted.

OTOH, traps intended to injure or kill (spear or arrow traps, spiked pits, deadfalls, poison needles, poison gas, acid jets, flooding rooms, etc.) should be rarer, and usually placed for a specific reason (guarding a particular location or treasure) and not just randomly (except on the lowest levels of the dungeon, where in some sense the entire level counts as a "particular location"). The players should be constantly worried about such traps (because when they spring one chances are pretty good they're going to die) but if they're actually encountering more than, say, 1 for every 3 or 4 monster encounters (which is to say about 1 for every 10 to 12 rooms explored, or about 1 per session) that's probably too much.

I'm speaking generally (edition-neutrally) here -- I have no idea how the specific dynamics of 4E might affect the above.

Excellent tips!

4th edition generally uses a trap replacement theory. The stats and experience rewards are typically balanced around the idea that they should replace a monster of the same level. So you might, for example, have traps working alongside monsters in a single encounter. You can also create an encounter that revolves around traps, although you must be careful about this one. There is an example of an all-trap encounter in Keep on the Shadowfell, and it works fairly well, other than the relative difficulty of disabling the traps being very high and the general danger level of the traps being very low (and easily circumventable).

Hazards and "natural" structures tend to follow the same rules as traps, but also make great opportunities to litter the dungeon with strange diversions. There's nothing wrong with having a locked door or a crevasse that is easily overcome by the PCs with just a few checks. Even if it ends up being trivial, it may end up diverting the flow of the game a bit. Plus you can create some very satisfying moments when the PCs, for example, cook up an idea to "surf" off the edge of a cliff on a tenser's floating disk to get an extra 5 feet of height, holding a rope, with the intent of making the jump and helping everyone else across.

Really, static hazards give PCs who are well-versed in rituals a real opportunity to shine, so don't be afraid to pepper them in.

On the subject of traps my view is that there should be some routes in that have traps that cut you off from the exit but if there is a safe route in and the party finds it then as they make more and more repeat visits to the dungeon along this route then some of the intelligent tribal inhabitants will start defending the dungeon at the bottlenecks of this route and using traps to assist the defense.
Also of the party breach that defense and the tribe is still surviving they amy try again with a larger force and more elaborate traps. Esentially the dungeon as the Western Front. This could be what the forces the party to try another route that gets them cut off in the dungeon with no known way back.

Also/instead, once the dungeon inhabitants come to realize that adventurers almost always follow into and out of the dungeon, the more intelligent ones will begin to avoid that area, making their lairs in the more remote and defensible areas (since they generally don't care about getting to the surface, what serves as an obstacle for the PCs might not necessarily be to them), meaning that if the PCs stick to the "safe" areas they'll find nothing but empty rooms filled with debris, vermin, wandering monsters, fellow surface-dwellers (bandits, NPC adventuring parties), and perhaps some poor/weak monsters that were thrust out of their original lair and have no place else to go (which can be either a boring and unrewarding combat or an interesting role-playing encounter -- perhaps these monsters are looking for revenge and might be willing to team up with the PCs to achieve it, or perhaps they'll pretend that's the case but really they're wanting to deliver the PCs to the boss-monsters as an offering, to prove their value and loyalty). In order to fight the toughest monsters (and even moreso to get the best treasures) the PCs are going to eventually have to depart from the "safe" paths and start doing some real exploration.