Megadungeon Sandbox and 4E

LostSoul · Nov 13, 2008

Grimstaff said:
Very possibly. I'm a big fan of quest xp and think that would lend even more weght to using the megadungeon as a "location for expeditions" as opposed to an "unending dungeon crawl".

...

Either way, it should hopefully provide a stronger motivation for the players to keep adventuring in the MegaDungeon.

Oh yeah, Quests.

I think you'd want the PCs to have lots of Quests at the same time, so they have to decide which one to pursue. I'd make some Quests out of their reach, some risky, some easy, etc.

Would you tell the players what level the Quest is? That would lead to informed choices - "The Library of Skulls Quest is Level 7, and we're only Level 4... it might be out of our reach."

timbannock · Nov 13, 2008

Note sure if it's been mentioned, but Castle Whiterock was an amazing megadungeon for 3.5E, and it also had a VERY in-depth series of "sub-quests" that provided extra XP rewards, magic item rewards if you went back to the person who gave you the quest, or increased power to some of the named magic items when you did certain things.

Basically, it had Milestones, Quests, and so on, and it wasn't even 4E yet!

I think the setup of the dungeon itself takes a lot of cues from what you guys have been talking about, too: a living dungeon with reorganization, random encounters are not a big deal and mostly there just to drain resources, and key locations that are tied to Quests and other historical info.

Worth looking at, as I've been reading it and the 4E-ness of it jumped out immediately.

crash_beedo · Nov 13, 2008

Castle Whiterock was pretty awesome, especially for 3.x era. I agree completely that Whiterock took the idea of quests, subquests, milestones, etc to a very high art; well worth reading for inspiration. My group was obsessed with ultimately finding the lost shrine of Justicia. (But they died...)

Comparing it to a classic megadungeon (let's say Temple of Elemental Evil, something most people are familiar with) - you can see the levels are not as large horizontally, they're fairly linear, there's typically only one access point per level, one exit down per level, few/no major highways in-out of the dungeon, etc. But the encounters are very well-designed and there's very good details on making the dungeon 'respond' to incursions via 'high alert status' and restocking.

I can say its the only 3.x era adventure I ran (right up until my group's TPK).

Grimstaff · Nov 13, 2008

LostSoul said:
Would you tell the players what level the Quest is? That would lead to informed choices - "The Library of Skulls Quest is Level 7, and we're only Level 4... it might be out of our reach."

I hadn't considered that, but yeah, it might be a good option. Especially if I can think of a way to convey that information in a more "organic" way, as I don't want to be too metagamey.

Stuff like this makes me miss the "named" levels of B/X, 1E, etc, where a magic-user was a "Sorcerer" instead of "9th level", etc. Not impossible to port something like this to 4E, though, with a little thought...

Lacyon · Nov 13, 2008

Grimstaff said:
I hadn't considered that, but yeah, it might be a good option. Especially if I can think of a way to convey that information in a more "organic" way, as I don't want to be too metagamey.

The easy way to do this is to say "The Library of Skulls is hidden on the 7th level of the Dungeon".

Let the players come to their own conclusion about the level of the Quest involved

Derren · Nov 14, 2008

I don't really see much of a sandbox here. The only freedom the PCs basically have is that they can choose their railroad (5 room dungeon).

But then, I think dungeons are the worst environment for sandbox games anyway.

Grimstaff · Nov 14, 2008

Derren said:
I don't really see much of a sandbox here. The only freedom the PCs basically have is that they can choose their railroad (5 room dungeon).

But then, I think dungeons are the worst environment for sandbox games anyway.

I think you've missed the point of the Megadungeon, which is the antithesis of railroad dungeon design.

The Megadungeon is basically a campaign setting, that setting being the Underworld. How the players function in and around the Megadungeon is intended to be entirely up to them, whereas the normal dungeon, or "lair" as many megadungeon afficinados call them, is intended to be linear, with one way in, one way out, and one goal to accomplish.

The Megadungeon is a living breathing sandbox that can be the centerpiece of a campaign, without restricting the players to a single course of action. Numerous adventures can be had outside the dungeon, without ever decreasing its importance. PCs may build baronies or even kingdoms of their own in the lands surrounding the MegaDungeons.

I'm probably not describing this as well or as succinctly as I could, so I'd recommend checking out the wonderful Megadungeon threads on Dragonsfoot and Knights-n-Knaves Alehouse, or researching the many anecdotes about the original MegaDungeons: Greyhawk and Blackmoor.

T. Foster · Nov 15, 2008

Yeah, the megadungeon ("campaign-dungeon" is an alternative term I tried to introduce that didn't gain much traction -- emphasizing that the nature rather than the size of the dungeon is the important distinction) is a way to "sandboxify" the dungeon concept, blowing up the size and scope of the dungeon to the point that it becomes essentially a campaign-setting, serving more or less the same function as the wilderness hex-map serves in a more "traditional" sandbox setup. In a mega/campaign-dungeon there are essentially "points of interest" scattered throughout the dungeon plus lots of "dead space" (empty rooms and miscellaneous tricks, traps, monsters and treasures) in-between. The players have their choice of which points of interest they wish to seek out and explore (with dungeon-levels allowing them to assess likely difficulty and reward), or if they choose to they can grind in the dead space, or they can leave the dungeon entirely and have sandboxy adventures in the wilderness or in town (the idea shouldn't be that the megadungeon is the only place to have adventures, just that it's the best and most convenient, especially for low level characters).

Two important keys are that there are always more points of interest (the party should never feel "stuck" exploring a particular area because there aren't any other options), and that the dead-space is never "cleared" (there will always be at least vermin and wandering monsters there). Certain areas within the dungeon will eventually become familiar -- the players will return to and pass through them again and again on their expeditions, eventually developing detailed maps, and even later not needing those maps because they've got the area memorized -- but around the edges (symbolic, not necessarily literal - depending on how you draw your maps it's entirely possible to have "remote" or hard-to-access areas right in the middle of the map) and deeper down there will always be fresh and unexplored areas.

Grimstaff · Nov 20, 2008

T. Foster said:
Two important keys are that there are always more points of interest (the party should never feel "stuck" exploring a particular area because there aren't any other options), and that the dead-space is never "cleared" (there will always be at least vermin and wandering monsters there). Certain areas within the dungeon will eventually become familiar -- the players will return to and pass through them again and again on their expeditions, eventually developing detailed maps, and even later not needing those maps because they've got the area memorized -- but around the edges (symbolic, not necessarily literal - depending on how you draw your maps it's entirely possible to have "remote" or hard-to-access areas right in the middle of the map) and deeper down there will always be fresh and unexplored areas.

This "unexplored edges" concept can really keep the setting fresh for a long time. The EX mods and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks were both based on parts of the original Greyhawk dungeon that Gary used as a sort of "break" from the normal Sword-n-Sorcery flavor of his Megadungeon. One area riffed on a deadly Alice in Wonderland theme, and the other was a crashed UFO which offered some sci-fi to the mix. He reported that the players welcomed the "break" both times, and were eager to get back to exploring the dungeon proper afterwards.

grodog · Nov 21, 2008

Grimstaff said:
This "unexplored edges" concept can really keep the setting fresh for a long time. The EX mods and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks were both based on parts of the original Greyhawk dungeon that Gary used as a sort of "break" from the normal Sword-n-Sorcery flavor of his Megadungeon.

Very true. This is also where using sub-levels can really shine: either as additions to previously-explored areas in order to breathe some new life into them, or as obscure/funky/mythic/hard-to-find areas that PCs may be a) elated or b) horrified to discover themselves in after a teleport trap/chute/trick staircase/etc. that drops them into such a location without a simple return. In order for that horror/elation to be real, the PCs and players need to have heard of these mythic areas before, so that they in fact have some true qualities of legend about them. Think of some dungeon levels or key encounters as artifacts and relics, and build them up in a similar manner.

Another key to campaign dungeons is breathing life into it, in the sense of layers of history. Not that you need to design oodles of backstory or anything like that, but that the dungeon will accumulate things: slain PC groups' equipment and maps will be scavenged by looters and perhaps reappear as part of monster hoards/in town in pawn shops/etc.; dungeon dressing should help bring out whatever distinctness for a level or an area within a level (all lights dim to 1/10th radius on the Crypt of the Vile Saint of Shadows sub-level; streams of water run throughout the top-most four levels after an extended rain, washing away tracks and perhaps flooding some levels below; etc.); layers of filth, dust, debris, mold, slime, and such may cover up paintings on the walls, or make secret doors much more difficult to find than usual; and NPCs and monsters will leave tell-tales all over the place---whether graffiti, cryptic messages ("Turn 5 B2 Fox"), evidence of mining/carbon scoring/lock-picking/door smashing/lightning-bolt-blasting/etc. These kinds of details help to simulate the idea of multiple parties of simultaneous explorers---definitely one of the highlights of DMing a campaign dungeon if you can pull it off, and even if you can't, you can simulate this layering of rumors/dungeon impacts due to enemy action/etc. by setting up some NPC parties who are rivals to the PCs.

Anyway, great thoughts in the thread!

@ Trent: you still need to write an essay or four on this for me