Where Has All the Magic Gone?

Obryn · Dec 12, 2008

Harlekin said:
However, as you said, selling magic items was pretty much pointless. Hence we kept weak magic items around on the off chance that we might use them.

Not if you used the RAW and considered 1 gp = 1 xp.

In fact, it is very worthwhile to sell off those unneeded items as soon as you can, once you get out of the dungeon.

A Gem of Seeing (to name an extreme example) nets you 2,000 xp if you keep it, but 25,000 gp+xp if you manage to sell it! That'll keep you in hirelings for years.

Heck, even a humble +1 sword only nets you 400 xp for keeping it, but 2,000 gp+xp for selling it.

-O

nightwyrm · Dec 12, 2008

Obryn said:
Nightwyrm, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, except for the first thing, here...

A quick read-through of the classic 1e modules shows that magic items were anything but rare. Additionally, many creatures required +X weapons to even hit, so naturally many campaigns had to include magic weapons.

Now, if what you mean by "rare" is that buying magic items was much less common, I'll agree 100%. But they're easy enough to find in most classic adventures. (I'm kind of surprised how much treasure - magical and otherwise - there is in ToEE, for example.)

-O

Ah, I was unaware of that since my old 2nd ed group never used any module. I think I got a +1 sword after 7 levels....anyways, maybe rare isn't the correct term. What I do mean is that getting magic items in older editions were completely up to the DM. There was no wealth by level tables or stuff like that. If the DM didn't want you to have anything, you don't get jack and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Thus, anything you get was valuable and precious....or maybe my old DM was just a meanie...

Anyways, another thing that comes to mind is that there is usually not a alot of duplicate items in the party while playing in older editions. The DM might not like to give out duplicate items and there's no mage-mart, so if you have a cloak of resistance, you're probably the only one in the group that have a cloak of resistance. This makes it feel that your cloak is a unique item. In 3e and later, everyone buys a cloak of resistance if they're not using the slot for something more important.

Miyaa · Dec 12, 2008

Deleted because of misplaced quote.

Miyaa · Dec 12, 2008

Mallus said:
Same here. My groups 4e campaign is still quite new, we're still clearly in the "learning the system" phase. But once we get more comfortable, I'm sure the DM will begin deviating more from the written rules to produce the desired level of "WTF just happened?".

I mean, the seeds are already sown. My PC is running around his home city with an unbreakable wooden box containing a very small god stuffed into his codpiece.

I'm sure something odd will come of that, mechanically and otherwise.

You have a very disturbing DM.

Nebulous · Dec 12, 2008

nightwyrm said:
If the DM didn't want you to have anything, you don't get jack and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Thus, anything you get was valuable and precious....or maybe my old DM was just a meanie...

Something about this really, really appeals to me (and i'm not a meanie). I can appreciate the level of balance built into 4e, but when i'm "expected" to hand out items of a certain power level at a certain time, well, it just reinforces the gaming aspect of the game and reduces the fun factor. For me, as DM. I don't think players look at it like that. I really have no problem handing out magic items, i just don't like being told i have to do something or i'll break the game.

Mallus · Dec 12, 2008

nightwyrm said:
What I do mean is that getting magic items in older editions were completely up to the DM.

It's my experience that this resulted in more items of greater power in characters hands at lower levels.

There was no wealth by level tables or stuff like that.

But there were commonly used published modules that were chock-full of magical items. They were essentially parcels of items grouped by a level range. So there really wasn't that much of a difference.

Thus, anything you get was valuable and precious....

This is something I like to call the "+1 longsword fallacy". The relationship of scarcity to value works a little differently with imaginary goods.

Interesting items are precious, as are ones that confer significant bonuses. Dull-but-rare items, and ones that confer minor bonuses, not so much...

Shadeydm · Dec 12, 2008

LostSoul said:
Random thoughts:

There's a magic item in Thunderspire Labyrinth that's cursed; it makes you fly into a rage when you are Bloodied.

Would a Belt of Giant Strength/Gauntlets of Ogre Power that changed your Strength score be unbalanced in 4e? I'm thinking maybe if you get them too early - the Fighter might like 25 Strength at level 1 - but if they are given out at a good level, maybe not. If the Gauntlets of Ogre Power give you 18 Str, and you find them at level 4-8 (level 8 item, maybe), it doesn't seem like it would ruin things too much.

I think that, since adjudicating strange occurances seems easier to me in 4e, strange items that do crazy things would be very cool in 4e. Let's say the Decanter of Endless Water is a level 5 item. If you open it in a tight stream, trying to push someone back: Standard Action, +7 vs. Fort, Hit = 1d6+4 damage and the target is Pushed 1.

I don't think anyone is disputing the notion that you could make up or recreate old school magic items for 4E but rather lamenting the need to do so. Many of the changes to magic items that I don't like happened in 3E so this isn't really about knocking 4E from my perspective.

Mallus · Dec 12, 2008

Miyaa said:
You have a very disturbing DM.

I'm lucky to have a terrific DM (and while the god-in-the-box was his idea, stuffing it into the codpiece was mine).

Harlekin · Dec 12, 2008

Nebulous said:
Something about this really, really appeals to me (and i'm not a meanie). I can appreciate the level of balance built into 4e, but when i'm "expected" to hand out items of a certain power level at a certain time, well, it just reinforces the gaming aspect of the game and reduces the fun factor. For me, as DM. I don't think players look at it like that. I really have no problem handing out magic items, i just don't like being told i have to do something or i'll break the game.

Shrug. I warned the players in my game that I tend to be stingy with magic items and that they should not expect level-appropriate equipment. I think 4th handles poverty of magic items better than 3rd or older editions, so i am pleased by that.