Where Has All the Magic Gone?

Scribble · Dec 12, 2008

Jack7 said:
Why don't they make Magic Items like they used to?

I was looking through my AD&D books tonight and noticed how versatile and multi-functional so many of the magic items were.

They were powerful, and they were odd, and fascinating, and most important of all a lot of them could do all kinds of things.

Got an example per chance?

malraux · Dec 12, 2008

As a player who learned the game in 3e, I've always viewed the wealth system and magic item economy as really just an XP system for your gear. And really, if the system assumes that at certain levels you will have items with certain bonuses, it is an XP system.

That said, I think 4e is a big improvement over 3e because they've dropped the +X items for items with pluses and interesting powers and reduced the incentives to drop the interesting but unusual items for a ring of natural armor.

I also think that 4e has specifically left design space open for the crazy items with unusual drawbacks by the way of artifacts. Artifacts are now the category of intelligent items, items that give bonuses and penalties, items with unknown powers, items with interesting histories etc. And in opposition to 3e where most artifacts were really just items that would cost way too much to create by the rules, 4e artifacts are reasonably easily designed for low level characters.

DEFCON 1 · Dec 12, 2008

I dunno... it seems pretty simple to me. 1E magic item were more "mysterious" because we had never seen them before.

In 1982... "Bracers Of Ogre Power raises my strength to 18/00?!? What?!? Are you kidding me?!? That's the greatest thing eve-- wait what-- Girdle of Hill Giant Strength raises my strength to 19?!? Oh my freakin' god!!!".

But now... we've had 30 years knowing what Bracers of Ogre Power do. So of course the mystery is gone. And when your DM says "you find a pair of bracers that infuse you with the power of the ogre...", we're all ho-hum.

And let's be honest here... even if all of you decrying 4E magic item design were to suddenly start playing 1E campaigns again... how many times would a DM hand you a supposedly "mysterious" magic item, only for you to discover that you already know what it was because you've had the rules for them for 30 years?

You are all looking for a nostalgia that you cannot get back, because you know Dungeons & Dragons. And it doesn't matter if you play 1E or 2E or 3E or 4E or Basic or Rules Cyclopedia or any of that stuff... because the "magic" of the game is gone. You already know everything.

You want to truly be surprised and filled with magic and wonder about an RPG again? Get your DM to pick up a game that none of you have ever played or even read... and have him run it for you. And make sure none of you players read the rules/setting/game. Then (and only then) will you have this nostaglic "magic and wonder" that you seem to crave.

billd91 · Dec 12, 2008

EroGaki said:
I miss my wand of fire, I really do !!

I think some of my favorite items were the cursed ones. I miss cursed items a lot. Not because they messed around with the players ( I admit that that aspect can be fun), but because they represented a facet of magic that has been lost in 3rd and 4th edition: magic can be unsafe, It can be unpredictable. It can have results that were not intended. That, in my opinion, is what killed much of the mystery and mysticism of magic items, and magic itself, in the current editions. Magic has had all of the bugs worked out of it, for better or worse. It is now safe and entirely predicable.

The guys at Paizo, at least partly, agree with you. The Pathfinder Beta now includes magic item crafting rules that require a skill check to succeed. It's a fairly easy check, but you can trade off a higher check to make the item faster or with missing components. Miss by 5 and you've got yourself a cursed item.
That is one thing about 3e item construction - there really was no real way to fail and produce a cursed item.

Nebulous · Dec 12, 2008

Scribble said:
Got an example per chance?

I sort of know what the OP means, but it will be hard to give a concrete example without a book in front of me.

Remember The Magister?

It was either 1e or 2e, i'm not sure. Anyway, it was a thin little book chock full of magic items and spells, but each one probably got half a page of description. A wand might have up to 5 different functions. Each magic item had an extensive backstory about who owned it (and sometimes their ill fate)

The items were probably unbalanced (as were many things back in those days) but i think the OP is saying that IN that unbalance exists a lasting appeal. The good news is that you can take an item like that, adopt it to 4e, called it a Minor Artifact and slap on some drawbacks, presto, you're done.

Heck, it would be more fun for me thinking up the bad sh** it will do the players than the good stuff!

Fifth Element · Dec 12, 2008

DEFCON 1 said:
You are all looking for a nostalgia that you cannot get back, because you know Dungeons & Dragons. And it doesn't matter if you play 1E or 2E or 3E or 4E or Basic or Rules Cyclopedia or any of that stuff... because the "magic" of the game is gone. You already know everything.

This has a lot to do with it, I think.

I can understand wanting more versatile items than 4E offers. But I also understand why 4E doesn't have these items (balance).

But I can't follow "less versatile" --> "less sense of wonder".

Nebulous · Dec 12, 2008

DEFCON 1 said:
And let's be honest here... even if all of you decrying 4E magic item design were to suddenly start playing 1E campaigns again... how many times would a DM hand you a supposedly "mysterious" magic item, only for you to discover that you already know what it was because you've had the rules for them for 30 years?

You are all looking for a nostalgia that you cannot get back, because you know Dungeons & Dragons. And it doesn't matter if you play 1E or 2E or 3E or 4E or Basic or Rules Cyclopedia or any of that stuff... because the "magic" of the game is gone. You already know everything.

You want to truly be surprised and filled with magic and wonder about an RPG again? Get your DM to pick up a game that none of you have ever played or even read... and have him run it for you. And make sure none of you players read the rules/setting/game. Then (and only then) will you have this nostaglic "magic and wonder" that you seem to crave.

This is probably true too. Our fondest memories of D&D (for those playing it many moons now) are probably rose-tinted memories from a 14 year old.

Sometimes the best solution is to just try a brand new game.

Korgoth · Dec 12, 2008

DEFCON 1 said:
You are all looking for a nostalgia that you cannot get back, because you know Dungeons & Dragons. And it doesn't matter if you play 1E or 2E or 3E or 4E or Basic or Rules Cyclopedia or any of that stuff... because the "magic" of the game is gone. You already know everything.

You want to truly be surprised and filled with magic and wonder about an RPG again? Get your DM to pick up a game that none of you have ever played or even read... and have him run it for you. And make sure none of you players read the rules/setting/game. Then (and only then) will you have this nostaglic "magic and wonder" that you seem to crave.

What a steaming load of insulting crap. It has nothing to do with nostalgia. It has to do with a difference in design philosophy. 3E and 4E magic items are assembly line McFantasy compared with 1E magic items.

So why don't you cut out the blanket insults? Oooh, someone committed the high crime of liking a non-pablum version of D&D. Get over it.