Where Has All the Magic Gone?

Raven Crowking

First Post
It always strikes me as amusing when folks say that the 1e X wouldn't be as good if it was being played now, little realizing that, included in the people that they are speaking to, are several folks who are playing 1e now and still find X to be good.

The nostalgia argument falls apart pretty fast when you realize that we are not always talking about what we did when we were 14. One of the specific design goals I had for RCFG was to put the Encyclopedia Magica into play within a system that didn't utilize THAC0.


RC
 

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Gentlegamer

Adventurer
There's also such a thing as looking back on certain things and discovering a new appreciation for things you hadn't fully considered in the past.
 

Shadeydm

First Post
The 3E nerfing of Gaultlets of Ogre Power is an excellent example of ways that magic items were changed that I didn't care for.
The change in wands meantion earlier in the thread was another one.

I don't believe this is in any way related to nostalgia.
 

nightwyrm

First Post
I would agree that magic items in older editions (pre-3e) tends to be wackier, more flavourful and more "magical" than modern ones. I think there are several interconnected reasons for this:

1. Rarity. In older editions, magic items were much rarer. Whether you get any magic items were purely up to the DM. But from 3e on, the game expects a character of a certain level to have a certain amount of items in order to face the challenges expected at those levels, causing a proliferation of magic items in modern games.

2. Balance. Modern games are more focused on balance and thus DMs have to have an idea of how powerful a magic item is, whether by assigning a level or a GP cost value to the item. In order to do this, the magic item has to be analyze-able. You have to be able to assign values to the effects of said item. Once you can analyze and do math with the effects of an item or magic in general, mysterious magic quickly becomes applied science.

3. Rules vs. DM ruling. In modern games, RAW is king. The DM has to make his rulings consistent with the rules of the game, rather than make completely arbitrary rulings. So, in order to maintain game balance, magic items and effects have to be codified and presented in simple, concrete terms describing exactly what they do, to allow the DM to make quick, accurate judgements. The easiest way to do this is to standardize the magic items and their effects. And also because of the importance of RAW, the magic items have to be created to fit into the rules framework. If you have a magic item A that can cast three wish spells and if a wish spell can create a magic item of item A's power level, you get an abusable loophole in RAW. This is a much greater problem in modern gaming due to the RAW>DM paradigm.

4. Secondary Magic Market. In 2nd ed and older editions, magic was pretty much untradeable. I've never encountered the mage-mart idea until 3rd ed. But the existence of magic item trading in modern game means that a magic item has to be useful to the player or it gets traded for more useful items. Since magic items can now be analyzed and compared, it's easy for players to see which items are more useful or powerful. Wacky, oddball items are only used to overcome challenges in funny, memorable ways because the players didn't already traded it for something that would allow them to overcome the same challenge in a conventional manner. Would you rather have item A which is cool in theory but unreliable and might only be useful a few times sometime in the future, or trade it for item B which is more mundane in comparison but is reliable and always useful? Most players would choose item B. A lot of players want simple, reliable items that they know would add a certain amount of power to their character rather than complicated items with unreliable abilities that rarely gets used.
 
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el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
Hey everybody!

Let's avoid the insults and the edition WARZ!

I will start kicking people out of the thread and handing out suspensions and take an unusual amount of pleasure in it and without prejudice.

If you see someone else crossing the line, refrain from commenting on, just use the REPORT A POST button.

Doesn't matter who starts it, I (or one of the other mods) will finish it.

Thanks.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Random thoughts:

There's a magic item in Thunderspire Labyrinth that's cursed; it makes you fly into a rage when you are Bloodied.

Would a Belt of Giant Strength/Gauntlets of Ogre Power that changed your Strength score be unbalanced in 4e? I'm thinking maybe if you get them too early - the Fighter might like 25 Strength at level 1 - but if they are given out at a good level, maybe not. If the Gauntlets of Ogre Power give you 18 Str, and you find them at level 4-8 (level 8 item, maybe), it doesn't seem like it would ruin things too much.

I think that, since adjudicating strange occurances seems easier to me in 4e, strange items that do crazy things would be very cool in 4e. Let's say the Decanter of Endless Water is a level 5 item. If you open it in a tight stream, trying to push someone back: Standard Action, +7 vs. Fort, Hit = 1d6+4 damage and the target is Pushed 1.
 


Harlekin

First Post
Couple of interesting points here

I would agree that magic items in older editions (pre-3e) tends to be wackier, more flavourful and more "magical" than modern ones. I think there are several interconnected reasons for this:

1. Rarity. In older editions, magic items were much rarer. Whether you get any magic items were purely up to the DM. But from 3e on, the game expects a character of a certain level to have a certain amount of items in order to face the challenges expected at those levels, causing a proliferation of magic items in modern games.

If you consider published adventures this is actually false. If you go back and look at any of the 1st ed classics, you will find that players will be veritable Christmas trees after surviving those scenarios.

2. Balance. Modern games are more focused on balance and thus DMs have to have an idea of how powerful a magic item is, whether by assigning a level or a GP cost value to the item. In order to do this, the magic item has to be analyze-able. You have to be able to assign values to the effects of said item. Once you can analyze and do math with the effects of an item or magic in general, mysterious magic quickly becomes applied science.

4. Secondary Magic Market. In 2nd ed and older editions, magic was pretty much untradeable. I've never encountered the mage-mart idea until 3rd ed. But the existence of magic item trading in modern game means that a magic item has to be useful to the player or it gets traded for more useful items. Since magic items can now be analyzed and compared, it's easy for players to see which items are more useful or powerful. Wacky, oddball items are only used to overcome challenges in funny, memorable ways because the players didn't already traded it for something that would allow them to overcome the same challenge in a conventional manner. Would you rather have item A which is cool in theory but unreliable and might only be useful a few times sometime in the future, or trade it for item B which is more mundane in comparison but is reliable and always useful? Most players would choose item B. A lot of players want simple, reliable items that they know would add a certain amount of power to their character rather than complicated items with unreliable abilities that rarely gets used.

I think your point 2 by itself is not correct. Even when playing the older editions, we were able to assess which item was useful and which was not. Using the earlier mentioned Wand of fire as an example, some of its abilities provided just a much better bang for buck than other abilities, so only those got actually used. The math was always part of the game.

However, as you said, selling magic items was pretty much pointless. Hence we kept weak magic items around on the off chance that we might use them.
 

Nebulous

Legend
Random thoughts:

There's a magic item in Thunderspire Labyrinth that's cursed; it makes you fly into a rage when you are Bloodied.

I like that. 4e needs more cursed stuff. Magic is too safe.


Would a Belt of Giant Strength/Gauntlets of Ogre Power that changed your Strength score be unbalanced in 4e? I'm thinking maybe if you get them too early - the Fighter might like 25 Strength at level 1 - but if they are given out at a good level, maybe not. If the Gauntlets of Ogre Power give you 18 Str, and you find them at level 4-8 (level 8 item, maybe), it doesn't seem like it would ruin things too much.

I think that, since adjudicating strange occurances seems easier to me in 4e, strange items that do crazy things would be very cool in 4e. Let's say the Decanter of Endless Water is a level 5 item. If you open it in a tight stream, trying to push someone back: Standard Action, +7 vs. Fort, Hit = 1d6+4 damage and the target is Pushed 1.

I'd certainly allow Gauntlets of Ogre Power at the Heroic Tier...I don't think it would be particularly broken. Alternatively, you could really pull the stops out and add a Belt of Giant Strength but add considerable drawbacks...maybe your muscles bulge so much you can't wear armor at all. It would be interesting to see the Fighter wade into combat with a 26 Strength and 10 AC.
 

Obryn

Hero
Nightwyrm, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, except for the first thing, here...

1. Rarity. In older editions, magic items were much rarer. Whether you get any magic items were purely up to the DM. But from 3e on, the game expects a character of a certain level to have a certain amount of items in order to face the challenges expected at those levels, causing a proliferation of magic items in modern games.

A quick read-through of the classic 1e modules shows that magic items were anything but rare. :) Additionally, many creatures required +X weapons to even hit, so naturally many campaigns had to include magic weapons.

Now, if what you mean by "rare" is that buying magic items was much less common, I'll agree 100%. But they're easy enough to find in most classic adventures. (I'm kind of surprised how much treasure - magical and otherwise - there is in ToEE, for example.)

-O
 

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