Is Tiamat Beatable?

Over the weekend my regular gaming group had our annual make a high level character you don't care about and run a monster gauntlet for fun game. This was the first one we'd tried for 4th ed (obviously I suppose).

It went pretty well, lots of wacky encounters and as a finale I gave the party their choice of BBEGs to take on. They went for Tiamat (mostly because Orcus is the assumed capstone fight for the H1-3/P1-3/E1-3 campaign that we're playing in our main campaign).

Perhaps unsuprisingly Tiamat was a party wipe. Now, I understand that she's a lvl 35 encounter which is at the extreme edge of what a lvl 30 party can take. They had poor initiative rolls which let two of her heads go before any of the party did which certainly had a big impact on the course of the fight.

At the same time they weren't perfectly balanced to fight her, with a striker heavy party (rogue, barbarian, ranger, swordmage, warlord) but the sheer level of ongoing damage and status effects she can pump out seems crazy.

So I guess my question is: Was this just a combination of Tiamat being at the fringe of what a lvl 30 party can take, combining with poor PC rolls and good DM ones, or is Tiamat designed to not be beatable without significant DM fiat? (something in the order of a weapon designed specifically to slay her that makes her regularly hittable; armour providing resistance to all 5 elements she deals; or some other plot device).

I bet if they'd played those characters to 30th and were more meshed with each other and their own abilities it would have been different.

That's a good point - the lack of synergy could certainly be a factor. At the very least I would have gotten a better feel for the fact that the party wasn't optimised to take on monsters that layer on status effects that heavily.

Although rereading my initial post now I didn't really get across exactly how one-sided this was. The entire party was down within four rounds and tiamat took only a single attack. This was with me not even bothering to take off and fly her out of the melee characters' reach, as recommended in her tactics section, and without the additional monsters she fights alongside in the encounter described in the Dracanomicon.

I guess the fact that it was so one-sided bothers me somewhat. While I understand that fighting a deity isn't, and shouldn't be, the same as fighting any other monster, I still feel that there was something wrong with the encounter.

Is this your first run at epic level play, and have the players spent a lot of time reading those rules. There's a lot of things epic characters can do that might be missed by someone who hasn't been reading their class for a few months or more as they gain levels.

What were the PCs' classes, paragon paths, destinies, and multiclass choices? Did they use all of those abilities effectively? In a typical capaign the players will know their characters and each others very well by that point. Even the most unsynergistic group can't help but have some good combos by that point, but its likely that the players didn't know about them. Likewise if everyone showed up with characters they thought would be cool instead of thinking about filling the roles, there could be major pain in any epic level fight they're in. There are very few epic encounters that don't involve multiple status conditions.

How did the fight start and what was the terrain? Did they start within range of Tiamat and did the environment help or hinder anyone? Did they know about the environment ahead of time and have a chance to prepare for it. A campaign is not going to have a sudden encounter with a deity, the PCs will have hunted her down and know where they're at well ahead of time.

How much foreknowledge did they have about the fight, and were they allowed to use resources to prepare once they knew what they were up against? In a straight campaign it's unlikely five characters who had never fought together before would have a random encounter with Tiamat. They would know each other's abilities, weaknesses, and use their money to plug those holes.

Basically I'm saying that it's probably the setup that was the problem, not the fight. It should definitely be a hard battle, and people should die, but epic level characters that know they are going to fight a deity could come very prepared. A single 25th level item disenchanted could buy 5 revenant ankhs, enough to make sure each party member comes back from the dead once in the fight. Most epic destinies have another way to come back from the dead. The party's defender (if he's a fighter) can have a couple more ways to come back. Clerics and Warlords can have tons of ways to give saves or flat out remove conditions.

Tiamat's AC of 51 is tough, but not unreachable. +10 stat +3 proficiency +15 level +6 weapon is +34. A tactical warlord could give another +11 with Lead the Attack, and +5 more on action points. A charistmatic rogue could apply a -10 penalty to her defenses with a sustainable power. Almost every class at that point has a way to reduce a target's defenses or give allies a bonus.

An unhouse ruled orb wizard using one of the orbs from Adventurer's Vault could knock her unconscious for five minutes with Sleep. It's guaranteed is there is a Divine Trickster in the party to force the first save to be a 1 so the wizard's -18 (or more) to the future saves would be insurmountable.

James McMurray said:

An unhouse ruled orb wizard using one of the orbs from Adventurer's Vault could knock her unconscious for five minutes with Sleep. It's guaranteed is there is a Divine Trickster in the party to force the first save to be a 1 so the wizard's -18 (or more) to the future saves would be insurmountable.

Click to expand...

I agree with most of your post, but this is incorrect: Negative status effects only affect the next head activation, so only one of T's heads can be put to sleep permanently. (I would also let natural 20s always succeed, no matter the penalty, but that's a subject for another thread.)

Neutering 1/5 of her actions ain't too bad for the use of two daily abilities, though.

Anything with stats is theoretically beatable - that's kinda the downside of having stats.

yesnomu said:

I agree with most of your post, but this is incorrect: Negative status effects only affect the next head activation, so only one of T's heads can be put to sleep permanently. (I would also let natural 20s always succeed, no matter the penalty, but that's a subject for another thread.)

Click to expand...

If she is dazed or stunned she loses her next head's activation instead. She has no special protection against other status effects beyond rolling saves immediately and on each head's turn.

I've been working on a build that could hopefully stand up to Tiamat for one encounter a day and has a chance at Bloodying Tiamat. It is Novaing it seems, but so far not so bad.
The defenses are up to:
AC: 60
Fort: 48
Ref: 53
Will: 53

With an additional +1 vs. the Breaths with Combat Anticipation and Concealment after moving 3 squares each turn. Its a Human Feypact Warlock who MCs into a Swordmage, Coronal Guard Paragon Path, and Radiant One Epic Destiny. Also has a Saving Throw against Ranged, Close, or Area attacks needing to make a 6 or better to "incinerate" the attack. Plus, if Caiphon’s Abominable Melody is insured to hit, you may also ignore damage with a roll of 10 or better on a d20 each time you take damage.

So a 55% chance to not take that 25 damage from the Aura. Near impossible to hit with a vs. AC attack, unless its on a natural 20 which faces the Melody defense. Blasts/Bursts/Ranged face needing a 15 to hit, then faces a 75% chance the attack incinerated, then a 55% chance the attack deals no damage. Only the Green Head's breath attack is the closest one to actually hit with needing a 11 or better. And if Tiamat attacks with a melee attack, it takes 6 damage each time.

The only problem is trying to get all the defenses up in time so you don't just simply evaporate in front of Tiamat after you roll for Initiative. Trying to get around the DM giving a Round or two to the Warlock for free before attacking Tiamat, but isn't looking good. Also is that Aura, which is simply being a pain to survive against. Finally, is actually hitting Tiamat with decent success.

I'll post the end result level 30 build later after Christmas and double checking to make sure everything is working together and double check to make sure that making it Swordmage main is not better in the end.

I don't think the question was nitended as "can someone make a build that will beat Tiamat?" but raher "can a typical 30th level party be expected to have a chance to beat her?" Builds are fun excercises, but don't really speak to balance.

Just looking at her numbers, she'll be a hard fight, but winnable with some losses (assuming that instakills like Sleep are house ruled into oblivion). It'll take lots of teamwork and a party designed to work well with each other, but that's fairly typical of all encounters 5 level higher than you. I'd also expect forewarning so the PCs have a chance to prepare.

That said, I'm curious.

WOLead said:

I've been working on a build that could hopefully stand up to Tiamat for one encounter a day and has a chance at Bloodying Tiamat. It is Novaing it seems, but so far not so bad.
The defenses are up to:
AC: 60
Fort: 48
Ref: 53
Will: 53

With an additional +1 vs. the Breaths with Combat Anticipation and Concealment after moving 3 squares each turn. Its a Human Feypact Warlock who MCs into a Swordmage, Coronal Guard Paragon Path, and Radiant One Epic Destiny. Also has a Saving Throw against Ranged, Close, or Area attacks needing to make a 6 or better to "incinerate" the attack. Plus, if Caiphon’s Abominable Melody is insured to hit, you may also ignore damage with a roll of 10 or better on a d20 each time you take damage.

So a 55% chance to not take that 25 damage from the Aura. Near impossible to hit with a vs. AC attack, unless its on a natural 20 which faces the Melody defense. Blasts/Bursts/Ranged face needing a 15 to hit, then faces a 75% chance the attack incinerated, then a 55% chance the attack deals no damage. Only the Green Head's breath attack is the closest one to actually hit with needing a 11 or better. And if Tiamat attacks with a melee attack, it takes 6 damage each time.

The only problem is trying to get all the defenses up in time so you don't just simply evaporate in front of Tiamat after you roll for Initiative. Trying to get around the DM giving a Round or two to the Warlock for free before attacking Tiamat, but isn't looking good. Also is that Aura, which is simply being a pain to survive against. Finally, is actually hitting Tiamat with decent success.

I'll post the end result level 30 build later after Christmas and double checking to make sure everything is working together and double check to make sure that making it Swordmage main is not better in the end.

Click to expand...

How did you get that 60 AC?