What would it take for 4E to win over the old guard? (Forked Thread: Changeover Poll)

Forked from: Changeover Poll

Ydars said:

I am not sure why this poll result (or any of the others) surprises anyone.

WoTC set out to ignore their existing customer base ( the "Old guard", mean age 30+ according to WoTC; represented strongly on ENWorld), in order to try to hook younger people into playing D&D (not well represented here yet and probably intimidated by the rancour that sometimes accompanies edition wars on this thread, hence are effectively lurkers).

The goal of bringing in new blood was/is obviously a great idea; the execution IMHO disasterously mismanaged and ill concieved. I wonder how many new gamers they actually have invested in D&D?

That 4E has fractured the old guard is still disputed, but it seems very clear to me that this fracture is real and significant. I think this is a serious miscalculation on WoTC's part but they clearly expected some loss of the old-timers, though perhaps not to the degree they have got now.

I think with hindsight, this ignoring the old guard will rank as one of the stupidest mistakes WoTC have ever made with respect to D&D; especially when Ryan Dancey once pointed out that the only effective competitor that D&D would ever have to reckon with was a previous edition of the game.

In this light, the handling of the GSL with the resulting Paizo debacle seems incomprehensibly arrogant. WoTC simply don't seem to realise that they/3PPs put out so much material under the aegis of 3.5/OGL that the old guard don't need them anymore. Such old guard already have a lifetime supply of material and so will have to be enticed back to D&D, possibly with a new edition.

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I forked this over from the Changeover Poll thread, which seems to show that a great deal of the old time hardcore gamers have not embraced 4E as much as once thought. So the inevitable question is: What (if anything) could 4E do to win people over?

I'm in my late 20s. If I or my mid 20ish group of gamers are in any way a representative demographic of the "Old Guard" that WotC hasn't won over for 4e, because it's not even an option on the table with any of us, they have some big issues to deal with.

From the sound of people nay saying 4E, about all it can do to appeal to 3E folks is change all the rules to match 3E and rename itself 3E. I think that would do the trick.

What would it take for 4E to win over the old guard?

Well, I'm not sure if I'm even "Old Guard" or not (I've been playing for 15 years, but here on ENWorld that almost seems like being a newbie), but I chose:

Forget 4E, it'll never win me over, and they just need to make sure 5E is closer to what I like.

It's not that I think 4E couldn't be fixed, but the amount of change I feel is necessary would probably make it into a completely new edition. So, the above poll choice is the most accurate for me.



In my opinion, the biggest things needing fixed are:

• Less reliance on powers so they don't "define" the classes so much. Let the abilities of the class define them, rather than "Powers".
• Less specific Powers, so like Feats and Skills in 3.xE, you have more adaptable options to envision different character concepts. One of the awesome things about 3E when it was released IMO, is I felt I could create almost any fantasy character I could envision or read about in a book, using the rules as written, right out of the gate with just the PHB. I don't feel like this is possible with 4E.
• More complexity and options in the "rules". The rules have been oversimplified and need a "happy medium" between 3.xE and 4E. (I think Pathfinder has done a good job attempting this. I'm eagerly awaiting their final product. I'll definitely buy it to steal ideas for my own houserules.)

But then again, as I've said in the other related polls, I've bought almost half of the available products released for 4E so far. So, even though I'm not switching, it's probably inconsequential to WoTC.

I can't really say since I am convert to 4e and certainly not, "Old Guard" (10 years of D&D and only 19 years old).

But... I think for some, it is simply a case of, "this isn't their edition", just like how for some nWoD isn't their edition while oWoD is. There is nothing wrong with either they are just tailored to different methods of playing D&D (either in feel, mechanics, method of play, etc.)

I think like El Mahdi said for some to "win over" to 4e it would take a whole new edition. Since, the current edition is simply not tailored toward their particular taste, ESPECIALLY if their taste has been matched to a tee with a previous edition.

Greetings!

Well, I think some of the whole process leading up to and including 4E was wrong. I think--strange as it may seem--that there are some things that are good for the hobby, and good for D&D--but not necessarily good for profits for WOTC.

Two things leap to mind--

(1) Dragon and Dungeon magazines. Yeah, I know it's the digital age, blah, blah, blah--and I also know that having the magazines online also increases the magazines' *functionality*--but at a loss, overall. Many, many people like having the actual *magazines*. I think while increasing the functionality of the magazines by going online is cool--but it probably lost many more fans than what being online actually pleases. Ending the Dragon and Dungeon magazines after such a long and famous career, at the end of the day, seems like a very poor decision.

(2) Short-circuiting the OGL--Failure to bringing 3pp onboard. The OGL is simply, hands down--the most revolutionary aspect to hit the RPG hobby in decades, if forever since the very introduction of the RPG genre in general. Trying to short-circuit that huge infusion of ongoing creativity and dynamic openness to the hobby is just piss-poor on WOTC's part.

Now, these two things are important preliminary points to consider. Then, there is the whole marketing fiasco of aiming for the *under 25 group*--and ignoring, or otherwise angering the *Old Guard*. Yeah, the *Old Guard* is important. Despite whatever relative size in numbers we may actually represent, if I am any representative of that segment, then WOTC risks losing a huge amount by pissing people like us off. I have a absolutely huge library of game books, not to mention the damned miniatures. I am not bragging in the least when I say I own a larger library of game books--and a better depth of selection--than most commercial game stores. I, and many other members of the *Old Guard* spend literally *thousands* of dollars on the game over a few years. We would, I imagine, outspend the casual gamer by at least x10, and probably much, much more.

4E should have looked at ways to improve 3.5E, without alienating such a huge percentage of the *Old Guard*. Certainly, make improvements to the system, but look for ways to improve it--without killing off or throwing out so many ideas, things, and concepts that are viewed by *most* to be essential to the D&D game.

As for "attracting the new audience"? Well, yeah, that's important, I guess. But honestly, as a corporate venture, the damned companies *TSR/WOTC*--have been chasing that unicorn forever now. They've consistently botched it, and they keep trying to recapture the adolescent explosion in popularity of D&D from 1978-1984. I really think "Getting new gamers" into the hobby has always been better served by *US* doing just that. Far more effective and enduring than whatever efforts the corporations have sought to do. The problem with that potential *fact*--is that it is an incremental and gradual approach to growing and sustaining the HOBBY--as opposed to growing and sustaining the company's quarterly and yearly profit margins.

Oh, and another thing. Remember ETOOLS????

You'd think after all these years that the folks up at WOTC would have said..."Hmmm...ok, well, before we actually release a 4E, why don't we make damned sure we have an entire digital suite of character generators, adventure thingies, etc, etc, all done and ready to go before we release any new edition?" They effed that up back in 3.0, and they still can't get it right. That, would be a big selling point I'm sure, to make any transition to 4E for the *Old Guard* easier. To this day--they *still* don't have that off the ground!!!

Well, I'm rambling, as it is late. There are several different things that WOTC has flubbed up on in this whole process, that makes moving to 4E so distasteful, problematic, and difficult for many members of the *Old Guard* that include whole mechanical aspects of the game, flavour, etc, but also include other issues that mix in with it, and are distinct. It seems to actually repair the damage now is, well, I guess too little, too late. They've changed the game so drastically, and combined with several other large issues that I noted, that it's like trying to get a yolk back into the egg once it has been broken.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

- Nothing! It's perfect as is and people just need to adjust to it!
- Once the Druid, Bard, Barbarian, and other classic classes are reintroduced, that'll be enough
- It needs some big changes, such as many more non-combat powers and options.
- Forget 4E, it'll never win me over, and they just need to make sure 5E is closer to what I like.

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I am *very* surprised (and honored) that fully two threads have emerged from a thread I posted.

Now, why can't I get this kind of interest in my Luna Lovegood versus Anakin Skywalker thread over on Circvs Maximvs? (lol ... I guess, because IRs, unlike lightning, do not strike twice in the same place?)

My answer to your question is:

- Nothing! If it's fun, that is all that is required.

There is now not a single thing that 4e can do to win my group over. If we had played it and liked it, we would have been onboard. However, we decided it wasn't for us.

And I'm not going to invest any more in a system that I'm not going to be playing. So, even if PHB2 included a complete rules revision that caused the game to suddenly become my ideal game system, it wouldn't help - I won't be buying the book, so would miss it.

If there is ever a 5e, we'll take another look. But at the moment I don't have any confidence that a potential 5e wouldn't take the game even further from what we're looking for.

Assuming by "old guard" you mean the "relatively new guard", that is, the 3E fans (and not the AD&D fans or the original D&D fans):

The only way 4E can win over the "old guard" is by changing into something that is decidedly not 4E.

And this ain't gonna happen.

By the time of any new edition, winning over any set of old guards is financially irrelevant.

Just wanted to say that I didn't mean to exclude anyone with the "old guard" comment... all are welcome to answer!


As for my own opinion, the Advanced Players Guide with 4e versions of classic character classes is already out and I own it, but that wasn't enough to convince our group to play it. However, I think the 3rd option, more options (especially for non-combat powers and abilities) and some rules changes (to make it more simulationist, such that wounds take a while to heal, etc) just MIGHT be enough. Hopefully the 2nd round of core books will help with this. If not, maybe a revised GSL will allow a 3rd party publisher to create such a thing. I know I'd really like to see a looser GSL that allows changes to existing powers, feats, classes, etc in order to allow that! So, I voted for the 3rd choice, though I can't help but wonder if some in my group are ready and willing to wait for 4.5/5e or go to another system entirely, such as Warhammer, or most likely, keep sticking with 3.5 as we have been doing.