Occidental Adventures

Khuxan

First Post
The various Oriental Adventures books for different editions have varied in their accuracy, their stereotypes, their generalisations, how fantastical their interpretation is, and so on.

If Dungeons and Dragons had been designed by an Asian, and Occidental Adventures had been written with similar disregard for the truth, what strange thing would have resulted?

I'm wondering if the answer is that it would look similar to this world's D&D - combining 17th-century ships with Jewish golems with Teutonic knights bashing heads in on a technicality, and so on. Or would it be monotheistic? Swords and sandals? About invasions and imperialism? Based on myths or fairytales or history?
 

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joeandsteve

First Post
Considering the stereotypes and historical inaccuracies in DnD regarding the assumed Western Middle Ages setting? I'd say about the same as we have now.
 


TwinBahamut

First Post
I also say it would look a lot like real D&D. It is not like D&D is remotely close to historical accuracy. Actually, I think the makers of various Oriental Adventures products were probably more interested in historical accuracy than the creators of core D&D were, and probably more so than the hypothetical Asian creators of D&D would be.

All of my experience with Japanese anime, manga, and videogames seems to back up that theory, at least.
 

S'mon

Legend
Of course Occidental is a European word - real Occidental fiction is set in America. :)

European Occidentalism includes a lot of British comic strips set in a very British version of America or future America, such as Preacher or more famously Judge Dredd. It took marying an American for me to realise just how parochial these were.

America has its own Occidentalism - The Western. :)
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
I can't speak for everybody involved with the original Oriental Adventures, though I do know that Kelley Foote was a pretty big stickler for historical realism in design (and actual play) or, at the very least, verisimilitude. OTOH, he often lamented that TSR did not share his views and, IMHO, the truth of that recollection shines through in the original OA material.
 

Jack7

First Post
It is an interesting thought exercise in my opinion Khuxan.

The problems that I see with an Occidental Setting and with D&D in general, per se, are exactly what you and others have implied, the problems of Era(s) [time], and geography(s) [space].

I run a semi-historical D&D milieu set on our world, circa 800 AD, and the geographic base of operations is Constantinople. We use real world religions, cultures, politics of the time period.

It is a D&D game mostly, with milieu and historical modifications I have written myself over the years. But the trouble with D&D and OA in regards to history is that one has to define exactly what one means by accuracy, and in regards to what time, and in what area. Eastern Europe and the Bulgars were extremely different from the Franks and the Carolingian Empire. The Russians far different from either. The Russians even different from the Vikings, though both were of same stock. The Italian city-sates, like Ravenna, not like their Roman and provincial forbearers. The Romans of Byzantium were nothing like the Romans of the Republic or Western Empire, and the Byzantines of the age of Justinian little like the Byzantines of the era around the Fall.

Also, do you include Africa in the Occident? Places like Carthage, Egypt, Libya, even Ethiopia played a large role in the West of the Romans and even of the Occident of the Byzantines. Are you just going to concentrate on Western Europe when one says Occident? Is Romania occident? It was after all named after Rome. What about the near-east, in which places like Syria and Israel and Palestine and even Persia were fundamental to the development of the Western Roman Empire, the Byzantines, and even to Western Europe? Would you include Islam as definitely Occidental, influencing the Occident, or Oriental in thought and nature?

The trouble with both D&D and OA (and I have OA too, and like it as a basis for developing more historically accurate game character models) and history is that both the time-frames and the geography are so sweeping that they cannot possibly be historically accurate specifically (or encompass real accuracy), though I think both efforts extract many important historical elements to create Cultural and Religious Game Archetypes.

If I had to describe it I would say both efforts cast a wide net, rather than a deep one. That is to say they are more interested in "sampling" some of the more important religious, mythical, and cultural Archetypes, over a wide range of geographies and historical eras, than they are interested in being accurate "in-depth." Which is another way of saying that the games wanted to embrace a lot of different possible milieus within one game umbrella, rather than concentrating on specific eras and geographies. Which is another way of saying the games wanted to reflect general cultural backgrounds and tendencies, but did not want to be tied to any specific milieu. They wanted to be milieu flexible.

Yeah, I think sampling might be a good way to put it. These games are not interested in detail as much as with "feel" and creating a sort of loose archetype of famous ideas and ideals (like with the Paladin).

If a D&D game had been designed by an Oriental writer or writers, rather than by Gygax (and the original D&D game was heavily occidental in basic modality) then I think they may very well have used some of the same tropes (though with different nomenclature, Paladins would have become Knights, Clerics would have become Priests, and so forth) and some very different ones (strict monotheism would have likely seemed exotic and fascinating in some ways to many Eastern minds in the same way paganism and polytheism might seem historically foundational in D&D sampling, but by the time era most of the original D&D "classes" - and they weren't really classes but rather professions - were structured then paganism was already an historical anachronism). For instance the Cleric is obviously not written to reflect paganism, but Christianity, so was the Paladin, a distinctly Christian cultural and mythical form and ideal. Nevertheless paganism was adopted as an anachronistic religious type or mode in D&D. It would also be very interesting to think of how an Oriental writer would have approached the idea of class and station very differently than Gygax. Gygax uses class to only very loosely and vaguely reflect what real class was, a social station. Instead he uses it really to describe profession or "vocation," - the Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard all reflect the idea of the "vocation." The East, generally speaking and up until recently has been much, much more fixed upon real and more historical and cultural class-ideals than has been the West. The West basically abandoned class, or made it anachronistic, long before the East, because of religious, economic, and political reasons. (Instead many in the West were far longer fixed upon the idea of race, rather than class, in a way making race a sort of "de facto class" in many cases.) It would be interesting to see how Eastern writers would have reinterpreted class in-game based on what they think it might have meant to the overall history of the West.

It would be I suspect an interesting exercise to "interpret the West" from outside and to see what some Easterners would have thought of as the most distinctive archetypes of the West to build a game around.
 


Celebrim

Legend
I agree with the general sentiment that it would be no less accurate than what we have. Historical accuracy was never a huge goal, even for antiquity obsessed DM's like Gygax.

Also, do you include Africa in the Occident? Places like Carthage, Egypt, Libya, even Ethiopia played a large role in the West of the Romans and even of the Occident of the Byzantines. Are you just going to concentrate on Western Europe when one says Occident? Is Romania occident? It was after all named after Rome. What about the near-east, in which places like Syria and Israel and Palestine and even Persia were fundamental to the development of the Western Roman Empire, the Byzantines, and even to Western Europe? Would you include Islam as definitely Occidental, influencing the Occident, or Oriental in thought and nature?

Generally speaking, 'Western Civilization' has been considered to mean 'everything West of Persia'. This is how it is taught if you take a survey in 'Western Civilization' - whether it is in literature, art, or history. Granted, within that definition, there is generally a bias in any Anglo academic tradition best described as, "The center of civilization has been continually moving Westward." So, if you take an Anglo survey of 'Western Civilization', you'll generally start the course in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) but soon move your interest to Judea and Greece (the spiritual and secular parents of Western tradition, respectively), and then move on to Rome, and then France and Germany, and finally end up in England and then maybe America. As the focus of the course moves Westward, you tend to lose touch with what is going on in the Eastern portion of the area called 'Western Civilization' except as it directly impacts the Western 'protagonist' culture. Thus, what goes on in Poland, the Balkans, and even the Ottoman empire - although quite important - will only get mentioned if it directly impacts where the attention has shifted.

So all the places you named with the exception of Persia (and sub-saharan Africa) would I think be considered Western. However, most of them would probably not be considered part of a core Western setting, but instead would typically get decorated onto that setting by supplements, much as a study of say Polan or the Portugese colonial/merchantile expansion into the far east or a study of Islam would be follow up on a general survey course.
 

Jack7

First Post
"The center of civilization has been continually moving Westward." So, if you take an Anglo survey of 'Western Civilization', you'll generally start the course in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) but soon move your interest to Judea and Greece (the spiritual and secular parents of Western tradition, respectively)

I completely agree with that myself.


and then move on to Rome, and then France and Germany, and finally end up in England and then maybe America. As the focus of the course moves Westward, you tend to lose touch with what is going on in the Eastern portion of the area called 'Western Civilization' except as it directly impacts the Western 'protagonist' culture. Thus, what goes on in Poland, the Balkans, and even the Ottoman empire - although quite important - will only get mentioned if it directly impacts where the attention has shifted.

So all the places you named with the exception of Persia (and sub-saharan Africa) would I think be considered Western. However, most of them would probably not be considered part of a core Western setting, but instead would typically get decorated onto that setting by supplements, much as a study of say Polan or the Portugese colonial/merchantile expansion into the far east or a study of Islam would be follow up on a general survey course.

I agree with that too, generally speaking.
I mention Persia not as being Occidental, per se, but for so long as being the main Oriental competitor and enemy of Greece, Rome, and later, Byzantium.

It would also be very interesting to see where and when an Oriental writer would begin Western Civilization as far as writing a fantasy game to reflect his interpretation of "the West."
 

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