D&D 4E Firearms in 4E

Kraydak said:

Guns (from a late enough period) *are* doomsday weapons, as their total dominance from the 1800s (1700s really) onwards demonstrates. See also the various colonial wars. Even light pistol rounds out-energy any muscle powered (non-ratcheted*) weapons. By a lot. Early firearms hit harder, farther than anything that came before, allowing them to defeat armor (and resulting in them displacing all other weapon systems).

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Kraydak, while your observations are for the most part correct, should we really be looking at the firearms of the 17th and 18th centuries as a model for the guns of D&D. The technology and societies of D&D are primarily modeled on the on the Late Middle Ages, particularly around the time of the hundred years war in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. Wouldn't it be better to look at the early firearms of the 15th and 16th centuries for inspiration, or even to look at the very early proto-firearms of the 13th and 14th centuries?

Honestly, the firearms of the mid-1600s are not "early" firearms at all. They are the weapons that arose after centuries of innovation and development. I think the firearms of the early 1500s are a better match for D&D, since the 16th century was a time where early guns, bows, swords, and heavy armor all co-existed with each other in history. Guns of that era would have the least impact on other aspects of D&D settings.

Easiest way to do firearms, IMO, is just just give them "high crit" and/or "brutal" properties, and make them expensive enough that low-level characters really can't afford them. (100+ gp). Give them a few inconvienient features like "load minor" or "load move", and they should be fine. No need to change the rules of the game just for a few weapons.

SkyOdin,
yeah, without some odd place of high tech, D&D gunpowder wepaons would be snaphaunce at best, most like matchlock, or maybe some other thing that may have been developed in different worlds than our own.

However, rifled barrels DO require pretty good tech, which is not gonna be likely in D&D. It's rifled barrels and standardized ammo that give guns their accuracy.

Kobold Avenger,
damage and range is fine, just depends on what weapons we talk about for reload


My own thought, is that in places where these weapons come about, they'd develop a magical or alchemical version of flintlock or percussion lock. This would make them easier ot use in D&D play, as matchlocks and even wheelocks add in a lot of hassles. It fits in easy with artwork and idea too.

However, they would lack rifling, this makes them no more accurate, at best, than a crossbow, and stops rifles being "sniper" guns that would break game balance.

I'd tend to keep their damage dice a bit high, rather than any Brutal or high crit thing, as, complexity is bad. Keep it simple Firearms hit hard due to chemical propulsion. So effectively, they act like they are hurled by a very strong creature, same for ballista, catapults etc. And the guns of the era we talk about fired massive lead balls...very messy.

So , say 1d10 damage for big pistols (like cavalry pistols which are massive), 1d8 for smaller more common pistols (that folk may carry a brace of) pistols ranges 5 (they just can't hit jack squat beyond that). 1d12 for most rifles (range 10/20). Make shotguns affect a 2x6 square area 3d4 damage.
Give firearms a +3 proficiency bonus to show their ability to punch through armour easier.
Make them Simple Weapons, but very expensive.
Reload IS slow, so should be full round action, but feat = move action to load.

But most heroes may have say, 6 pistols in belts, drag out and shoot one by one, and then go to melee weapon when run out..which is MUCH more fun than "western" gun fights: Jack Sparrow, John Paul Jones, etc!
?

I dunno with myself I go with generally balance and "rule of cool" when it comes to firearms.

As such while the mechanic of the firearm is different from a bow or crossbow it still is balanced against it. Generally this has no real relation to what that type of gun it was in real life.

To also add to this, it depends on what the campaign is and its relation to the "rule of cool". For instance in many of my campaigns I got for example; fully armoured knights in plate armour charging at their enemies on horseback firing revolvers then pulling out their longswords. The chance of this happening in any manner of history is about nil but it is cool and thus works.

SKyOdin said:

Kraydak, while your observations are for the most part correct, should we really be looking at the firearms of the 17th and 18th centuries as a model for the guns of D&D. The technology and societies of D&D are primarily modeled on the on the Late Middle Ages, particularly around the time of the hundred years war in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. Wouldn't it be better to look at the early firearms of the 15th and 16th centuries for inspiration, or even to look at the very early proto-firearms of the 13th and 14th centuries?

Honestly, the firearms of the mid-1600s are not "early" firearms at all. They are the weapons that arose after centuries of innovation and development. I think the firearms of the early 1500s are a better match for D&D, since the 16th century was a time where early guns, bows, swords, and heavy armor all co-existed with each other in history. Guns of that era would have the least impact on other aspects of D&D settings.

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I would argue that D&D in its current form is modeled more after 16th-17th century Renaissance Europe, than earlier Medieval periods. If you take a good look at the standard equipment list, the early-middle Renaissance period is when you'll find everything on the list available... especially if you add in firearms.


Anyway...


Another way to look at this is, when you look at firearms of the period, what stereotypical things do they do (or don't do) that other ranged don't (or do)? What makes them different? Focus on that.

One way of doing that is to focus on properties that aren't represented in the current line up of ranged weapons... pretty much everything except for "load X". I wouldn't use all of these, but here's a few suggestions on some that could be used:

High Crit - An obvious choice to represent the fact that lead bullets occasionally flatten or bounce around inside the body on a lucky hit, thereby causing extra damage.

Load - As already mentioned, making it Load Standard would be enough to emulate the lengthy loading time of most musket-like guns. Most players I know would rather carry a brace of pistols and take Quick Draw as a feat, than have to spend a Standard action to reload. That makes it feasible to reload a gun and attack within the scope of a combat, but steers PCs towards carrying multiple guns for fast attacks.

Off-Hand - Give it to pistols... It would promote fighting with two pistols, or fighting with a pistol in one hand and a melee weapon in the other, both iconic black powder styles of fighting.

Brutal X - The main benefit from this property isn't that it increases average damage. As others have noted, that can be done by increasing the damage dice. The real benefit is that it increases minimum damage, without increasing maximum damage, a subtle but significant difference.


Also, compare groups of melee weapons, and their proficiency bonuses, damage dice and properties. That'll give a better idea for the trade-offs. For example, a Katar and a Shortsword are essentially the same weapon, except for the fact that a Katar requires a Superior Weapon Proficiency in exchange for the high-crit property.

Personally, I would make the firearm be like a Daily magic item, except it would be an Encounter power, then make an Encounter power with scaled damage and whatever status effect that's appropriate.

The defining qualities of early (but established, non-curiosity) firearms were very high damage (high W, and either high accuracy or attacks vs reflex) at very long range. The drawback was extremely slow RoF.

So how about the following:
Firearms are available only in magic versions, with the same enchantments available as crossbows. They are priced as items 1 level lower (a lvl 0, +1 firearm price=1/5 a lvl 4 item price=168gp, and +7 firearms are available as lvl 30 items).

Stats:
proficiency: special
damage: pistols 1d10, brutal 1, high crit
muskets 2d6, brutal 1, high crit
range: pistols 20/40
muskets 40/80

Special: a firearm can only be used in conjunction with the "firearm" power.
Power (Encounter): free action: When wielding a firearm you can alter any ranged weapon attack that makes only a single attack. This replaces the Attack entry with +8/+11/+14 vs AC (H/P/E, note no ability score) and adds one additional W to the damage roll. Note that the above modifications DO NOT count the weapon's enhancement bonus, which gets added as normal for a weapon power.

This makes firearms very expensive (although still somewhat useful) for primarily ranged combatants, but lets a non-dex guy (melee ranger, ranger MCed fighter for example) make use of a ranged power, replacing his (pathetic) dex score in the attack with a flat to hit bonus and replacing his (pathetic) dex score in the damage with an extra W. This gives you a musketeer-esque character, who *has* ranged capabilities, but focuses on swordplay.

To tone the above up, boost the damage dice (eek!). To tone it down, remove the high crit and/or brutal.

thundershot said:

Easiest way to do firearms, IMO, is just just give them "high crit" and/or "brutal" properties, and make them expensive enough that low-level characters really can't afford them. (100+ gp). Give them a few inconvienient features like "load minor" or "load move", and they should be fine. No need to change the rules of the game just for a few weapons.

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Yes. I forgot about the High Crit property. That would probably be better than using the d12.

Hit bonus up but rang of accuracy down is also more realistic. I was thinking more along the lines of range of range propelled rather than accuracy before, which wasn't right.

Halivar said:

You are quite incorrect. The Persian army of antiquity employed volleys of slingers in the thousands. Military slings used lead balls, and they were deadly at a greater range (600m) than any bow ever created, including the English longbow (180m). Slings were also used well into the medival period; they simply don't have the glamour of the bow for anyone to remember them.

IOW, the D&D sling is not nearly as powerful as it needs to be.

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Hence the "myth and..." part of that statement - I've an amateur's interest in military history and am aware of the military uses of the sling, including the Persians and the Balearic Islanders. That doesn't stop it from ALSO being a peasant's weapon as well. The materials to make a sling are readily available to a peasant (being leather), and stones are not uncommon so anyone could be practicing with one in their free time.

If you want trained slingers, make a feat to increase the damage die to d8 and let them take weapon focus; leave the rest of us farmers who have been using a sling to drive off wolves since they could walk.

Kraydak said:

Special: a firearm can only be used in conjunction with the "firearm" power.
Power (Encounter): free action: When wielding a firearm you can alter any ranged weapon attack that makes only a single attack. This replaces the Attack entry with +8/+11/+14 vs AC (H/P/E, note no ability score) and adds one additional W to the damage roll. Note that the above modifications DO NOT count the weapon's enhancement bonus, which gets added as normal for a weapon power.

This makes firearms very expensive (although still somewhat useful) for primarily ranged combatants, but lets a non-dex guy (melee ranger, ranger MCed fighter for example) make use of a ranged power, replacing his (pathetic) dex score in the attack with a flat to hit bonus and replacing his (pathetic) dex score in the damage with an extra W. This gives you a musketeer-esque character, who *has* ranged capabilities, but focuses on swordplay.

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Do you realize that Rangers and Rogues are the only ones who will be able to use this power? It means no one else at all would be able to use a musket.

Even you let them use it with basic ranged attacks, the rules are unnecessarily complicated, and don't really accomplish anything that you couldn't from a straight up Dex vs. Reflex Encounter power.

On top of that, the numbers don't really scale well, if you compare them to typical PC attack bonuses at the various levels. +8, for example, is huge for a 1st level character, but less than mediocre at 9th or 10th.


Consider this basic idea (it may need to be adjusted) as an alternative...

Magiclock Gun Level 2+
"Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my BOOMSTICK!"

Lvl 2 +1 520 gp
Lvl 7 +2 2,600 gp
Lvl 12 +3 13,000 gp
Lvl 17 +4 65,000 gp
Lvl 22 +5 325,000 gp
Lvl 27 +6 1,625,000 gp
Weapon: Mace, Spear, Staff
Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d6 damage per plus
Power (Encounter): Free Action. During your next attack, this weapon may be treated as a ranged weapon with a range of 10/20.