Homebrew System - Vitality/Wound Point Questions

I have been working on a homebrew d20 system for awhile. I've been looking to run a cinematic high fantasy/low magic campaign. The standard hit point rules seem to assume that healing magic is fairly common, since without it parties will have to take days of rest after every single fight. However, since my homebrew world is low magic, I have been looking at a way to keep a cinematic feel without handing out vasts amounts of healing potions. I recently stumbled upon the Vitality/Wound system used in the previous editions of the Star Wars system. The solution seems simple enough...damage is actually taken as Vitality (representing ability to avoid serious phyiscal damage). When Vitality is depleted, players start actually taking wounds (equal to the character's CON score).

Has anyone used a Vitality/Wound system for any games such as Star Wars? How did it work? Are there any problems that tend to come up in such systems? (Was there a reason why SW Saga switched to straight up Hit Points?)

Also, how would you handle situations such as being shot at point blank range or stabbed in the back with a vitality/wound system. What situations should the DM rule that damage goes straight to wound damage? (I'm thinking of the oft encounted situation with the PCs being held at crossbow point.)

Finally, how would you work feats that rely on bleeding damage (such as Arterial Strike from the Complete Warrior). The description of the feats definately sounds like they are doing physical damage; yet having such feats do wound damage would make them overpowered.

Yor thoughts?

Generally, I think it makes more sense to think of hp as being vitality point anyway (or luck points or plot-protection points). Obviously, D&D is not entirely consistent on this point (as witnessed by the feats you mention, and the healing times). The latter is easy to deal with, just change it in your game so you get all your hp back if you rest for the night (or even for a few minutes).

The VP/WP system in previous editions of SW had a problem in that any crit went straight to wounds, and weapon damage was such that any hit was quite likely to kill you. And PCs over their careers faced so many attack rolls that it was pretty much guaranteed that they get critted sooner or later. It is not necessary for a VP/WP system to have that particular flaw, but I am not convinced another set of points really add anything.

Personally, I like WFRP's take. You have a pool of wound points (a small pool, given the grittiness of the game), and one that is expended you start getting injured for real. Once you are out of W, all hits on you cause random (and usually rather nasty) injuries. If you are lucky you can keep fighting for a while after you run out of wounds, but the next good blow will take you out of the fight (often messily). If I ever get around to making my own homebrew system, I'll couple this with D&D-like numbers of hp.


glass.

The first thing to look at when switching to a V/W system would be the "official" rules in Unearthed Arcana.

Now, as for your questions that aren't answered there:

Has anyone used a Vitality/Wound system for any games such as Star Wars? How did it work? Are there any problems that tend to come up in such systems? (Was there a reason why SW Saga switched to straight up Hit Points?)

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My current game of choice (Spycraft 2.0) uses an enhanced version of the system that adds non-lethal damage back in, but my comments will be general. It works fine, although (as the rules comment) it makes CON damage more powerful (since it reduces but your Vitality and your Wounds). It also doesn't change the dynamic all that much, since really the difference between HP and V/W is that inthe latter your characters (PC and NPC) have a bonus to their HP equal to their CON.

Also, how would you handle situations such as being shot at point blank range or stabbed in the back with a vitality/wound system. What situations should the DM rule that damage goes straight to wound damage? (I'm thinking of the oft encounted situation with the PCs being held at crossbow point.)

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Well, SC2.0 addresses this with Terminal Situations. Basically, when the GM says a character is in a Terminal Situation, their opponents can kill them by spending an Action Die. No save, no damage, just dead. This is only for circumstances where the character has no chance if the other person wants them dead. Waking up with a gun in your mouth, for instance. I would not recommend this in D&D, even if you are playing with Action Points. Take the concept though, and just say that you can be Coup de Graced when ever you have no oppertunity to avoid an attack. In essence, someone sticking the crossbow in your stomach or the dagger to your throat has you helpless. As for beeing stabbed in the back or covered, don't do anything special. You wanted cinegraphic, PC's scoffing at beign covered, charging and barely dodging the bolts (taking some Vitality damage) and kicking the villian's rear is cinegraphic.

Finally, how would you work feats that rely on bleeding damage (such as Arterial Strike from the Complete Warrior). The description of the feats definately sounds like they are doing physical damage; yet having such feats do wound damage would make them overpowered.

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Try this (adapted from SC2.0):
1 point Vitality per wound if you do nothing. 1d4 points of damage per wound if you take a Standard, Move, Full-Round, or Swift action. Apply to Vitality first.

I recommend using the Unearthed Arcana rules, with a few additions and changes:

• If a weapon receives a damage multiplier (such as readying a spear against a charge or using a lance during a mounted charge), the multiplier works normally unless a critical hit is scored (in this case, deal the weapon's normal damage directly to wounds and deal the remainder to vitality first).
• Any bonus damage (such as from the flaming property or sneak attack dice) applies at its full damage value to vitality points first, even on a critical hit. Once vitality points are depleted, this damage applies fully to wound points.
• Critical hits do not bypass Damage Reduction from armour or the Barbarian class ability, unless the target has no vitality points remaining BEFORE you apply damage.
• When a character is dealt nonlethal damage, the attack cannot score a critical hit. A successful hit with nonlethal damage reduces vitality points normally, but applies against wound points as nonlethal damage does to standard hit points. Nonlethal damage heals at the same rate as the character’s vitality points, and any spell or ability which heals vitality points additionally heals an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
• Instead of using the variant system of stopping at 0 wound points and using Fortitude saves to avoid unconsciousness and death, I recommend allowing wound points to drop below 0 (at 0 you are disabled) and using my Death's Door house rule. Otherwise, the strength of the attack that hit the character (ie how much extra damage beyond reducing them to 0 wound points) has absolutely no impact whatsoever. In fact, using Unearthed Arcana's ruleset, you could take 50 wound damage, roll a 20 on your Fortitude save the first round, and be right back in the fight at 0 wound points, then take another 50 damage and merely be unconscious and dying again, exactly the same as if you'd been nicked by a dagger when at 1 wound point remaining. You also have the same chance of dying in the first round and all subsequent rounds regardless of how powerful of a blow you took.
• A creature with regeneration treats all damage as nonlethal damage, and the creature cures nonlethal damage at the fixed rate. Once all nonlethal damage is cured, the effect begins to apply to vitality points instead. Vitality or nonlethal damage dealt by an attack that bypasses the creature’s regeneration cannot be healed by the creature’s regeneration ability for an hour. Even though all attacks are treated as nonlethal damage, you can still score a critical hit normally on a creature with regeneration (the wound damage simply becomes nonlethal damage).

Some tips:

• Decide whether attacks that require physical contact (such as energy drain or poison) apply when the target takes vitality damage, or only when they take wound damage. This can affect some special abilities greatly, but keeps consistency with the idea that vitality damage represents "avoiding" otherwise potentially lethal hits by, well, not getting hit thanks to stamina and their heroic training.
• If you want a more realistic and lethal game, regular attacks on helpless characters deal wound damage. Otherwise, have them reduce vitality damage normally. A coup de grace is an automatic critical hit and forces a Fortitude save to avoid death as normal.
• For purposes of Concentration, any attack which deals damage, vitality or wound, requires the same Concentration check to avoid losing the spell. The focus required to barely dodge that orc’s greataxe makes it just as hard to get the spell off as if he had actually hit you.

Environmental Damage
In order to prevent characters from falling into lava and only taking vitality damage, or applying all damage to wounds to be realistic and just instantly killing them on a regular basis, I recommend the following:

• Being in the bury zone of a landslide or avalanche, being fully immersed in boiling water or acid, taking any damage from exposure to lava or magma, or being damage by a trap that does not require an attack roll and does not allow a saving throw (e.g. crushing walls/ceiling that you are unable to roll a Reflex save to escape from) deals damage directly to wound points, regardless of any vitality points remaining. Once the character's wound points drop to a certain amount, the remaining damage is applied to vitality points until none remain, then back to wound. If you are using D&D's standard -10=dead rule or my Death's Door house rule, begin applying damage to vitality after the character drops to -1 wound points. if you are using Unearthed Arcana's written rule, apply damage to vitality after the character reaches 0 wound points. Any continuing damage of the above sort will continue to deplete the character's vitality points until none remain, at which point they will continue to take wound damage until they die. If you want things to be a little more lethal when using my Death's Door rules, stop applying wound damage when the character reaches their Critical Condition Threshold (since at this point they can no longer stabilize on their own, but their vitality points prevent the extra damage from making the save vs. death any tougher until they are depleted).

You've stated that your primary goal is to reduce dependance on magical healing to stay in line with a low magic campaign. I would suggest that you are also concerned with lethality since that is a by-product of the Vitality/Wound system.

There are two systems in the SRD that might provide the solutions that you are looking for.

Reserve Points are a pool that the character draws healing from in between combat scenes. The effect of this is too make all damage effectively subdual or non-lethal as long as the character has points in their Reserve pool. That description is not totally accurate but a fairly apt description.

If you are concerned with lethality or the One Shot Kill you might consider the Massive Damage rules also from the SRD. This rule set serves to make great amounts of damage semi-lethal or at the least very decisive.

I have turned these rules for my own game, strongly derived from Microlite20, into a means to fuel magic and a wound track system.

Reserve points have never really been my cup of tea--something about nearly dead characters suddenly being back on their feet again without any magical aid whatsoever really gets on my nerves. Still, it is certainly a much simpler system than vitality/wounds, with less potential problems.

genshou said:

Reserve points have never really been my cup of tea--something about nearly dead characters suddenly being back on their feet again without any magical aid whatsoever really gets on my nerves.

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People, human beings, getting shot with lightning bolts and not even slowing down (let alone actually being impaired) gets on my nerves. But sometimes you just have to play in a pure HP system to play with the table you want to play with.
Reserve Points at least shift the recovery from these highly cosmetic injuries to the character's own coolness rather than being reliant upon external sources. Seems a bit more consistent (to me) with the rest of the system's assumptions. Obviously, opinions vary.

ValhallaGH said:

People, human beings, getting shot with lightning bolts and not even slowing down (let alone actually being impaired) gets on my nerves. But sometimes you just have to play in a pure HP system to play with the table you want to play with.
Reserve Points at least shift the recovery from these highly cosmetic injuries to the character's own coolness rather than being reliant upon external sources. Seems a bit more consistent (to me) with the rest of the system's assumptions. Obviously, opinions vary.

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Outside of 4e, I've never seen D&D have the assumption that a PC who was just nearly killed by an attack should be up and running again within minutes, provided no magical aid or even outside intervention. Granted, if they drop clear to -9 hp before stabilizing, they no longer have reserve points to use for the rest of the day. However, it just seems rather silly to go from -9 to 9 less than maximum hit points without either receiving healing magic or resting for a very long time.

As to lightning bolts, there are people in the real world who have been struck by lightning and been relatively "unharmed" (I'm sure they wouldn't survive a second lightning bolt, but they have no severe injuries), even able to walk away under their own power almost immediately. And they're not even heroes who are regularly blasted by destructive magic, nor were they able to see the attack coming and attempt to heroically dodge so the bolt wouldn't hit them directly in the heart.

shadow said:

Also, how would you handle situations such as being shot at point blank range or stabbed in the back with a vitality/wound system. What situations should the DM rule that damage goes straight to wound damage? (I'm thinking of the oft encounted situation with the PCs being held at crossbow point.)

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If you attack someone point blank who is completely unaware of your presence, you should be able to coup de grace them, since they would be considered helpless (this was in SWd20 somewhere, either in the core rulebook or on the online Q&A). This requires getting to melee reach from your target prior to being detected, so you can't run up to them and attack; you have to stay hidden all the way until you are literally right on them. However, if they aren't helpless, levelling a crossbow at them has no special advantage, except that they will possibly be flat-footed when you fire. Firing a crossbow at a guy who's in melee with someone else or is firing back at you is the same as firing at a guy who's just standing there warily watching you (such as an ambushed adventurer who is parleying), except that he might not be ready for your attack and thus be unable to use above-average reflexes to avoid it altogether. There's no reason that being held at crossbow point should have special considerations.

However, if you have them grappled and pinned and have a knife at their throat or what have you, the system already has rules for attacking a pinned character. If they make no effort to fight back, they might be treated as helpless (allowing a coup de grace), but if they are kicking, biting, and otherwise generally struggling, you won't necessarily be able to pull off an attack like you planned. Remember, even when pinned a target is not helpless and can attempt to escape the pin.

Finally, how would you work feats that rely on bleeding damage (such as Arterial Strike from the Complete Warrior). The description of the feats definately sounds like they are doing physical damage; yet having such feats do wound damage would make them overpowered.

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Since these attacks require a solid hit on the target, you could rule they only apply when the target takes wound damage on an attack. This requires them to either receive a critical hit or be out of vitality points. Even if you let other special attacks work when only vitality damage is dealt (a vampire's slam attack that deals vitality might touch the target but not inflict significant bodily harm, but still cause energy drain), that's the best way to balance wound effects.

shadow said:

I have been working on a homebrew d20 system for awhile. I've been looking to run a cinematic high fantasy/low magic campaign. The standard hit point rules seem to assume that healing magic is fairly common, since without it parties will have to take days of rest after every single fight. However, since my homebrew world is low magic, I have been looking at a way to keep a cinematic feel without handing out vasts amounts of healing potions. I recently stumbled upon the Vitality/Wound system used in the previous editions of the Star Wars system. The solution seems simple enough...damage is actually taken as Vitality (representing ability to avoid serious phyiscal damage). When Vitality is depleted, players start actually taking wounds (equal to the character's CON score).

Has anyone used a Vitality/Wound system for any games such as Star Wars? How did it work? Are there any problems that tend to come up in such systems? (Was there a reason why SW Saga switched to straight up Hit Points?)

Also, how would you handle situations such as being shot at point blank range or stabbed in the back with a vitality/wound system. What situations should the DM rule that damage goes straight to wound damage? (I'm thinking of the oft encounted situation with the PCs being held at crossbow point.)

Finally, how would you work feats that rely on bleeding damage (such as Arterial Strike from the Complete Warrior). The description of the feats definately sounds like they are doing physical damage; yet having such feats do wound damage would make them overpowered.

Yor thoughts?

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Well, if you want a lot of combat, but essentially have a no magical healing, you can do the vitality/wound system, but add a lot more vitality so that there is "staying" power. Also, have vitality automatically heal at a certain rate per minute/per hour/per day, whatever so that when PC's do decide to camp and rest for the day, it's because they've run low on other resources.

Another approach is to make heal checks and mundane things more potent in restoring vitality points. While they may not restore wound points, they can get those scratches, scrapes, and bruises taken care of in no time.

I wouldn't handle a point blank shot or a stab in the back any different under the current rules--it would be taken out of vitaility first and then wounds. Feats that cause bleeding would definitely be vitality. I would even change critical hits to be from vitality unless you want to keep this element of grittiness in the campaign.

Happy gaming.