Proposal - Martial Power

Atanatotatos · Feb 24, 2009

Yeah, not only that. The worst face of Marked scourge is when a Tempest uses it. Then it's gonna hurt, badly. A high number of attacks is less likely in a push/knock prone build.
This doesn't mean I'm completely un-worried about Dragonic Arrogance; it's strong, but it doesn't have the potential for overpowere-ness MS has.

Lord Sessadore · Feb 24, 2009

Yes, I think Tempest + Marked Scourge is bad. Not only multi-attack powers, but multi-target powers are nasty with that. Close burst 1 + AP for another Close burst 1 can spread that extra damage quite efficiently.

For Draconic Arrogance, I think the worst two offenders are Tide of Iron and Vorpal Tornado (close burst 1, on hit pushes 1 and knock prone). Tide of Iron we will see plenty of, no doubt, but Vorpal Tornado is a level 17 encounter power - firstly, I doubt we'll ever see it in play, and secondly, I don't see a problem with a power at that level getting extra damage, especially when it's only one power.

Dunamin · Feb 24, 2009

If the feats are somewhat in line on their own but push into too high potency when combined with particular builds, can't we just eliminate that synergy rather than flat-out omit the feats?

For example, would it work if we add a clause to Marked Scourge that says: "this Wisdom bonus does not stack with Wisdom bonuses from other sources" or the like?

covaithe · Feb 24, 2009

To be honest, I can't really say I'm worried about these much if they're close burst 1 things. I find myself hard pressed to think of a situation where a handful of extra damage makes up for putting yourself in the middle of a circle of level-appropriate, non-minion monsters. You'd better hope you kill most of them, because if you don't....

Oni · Feb 24, 2009

Battlefield Scourge
Prerequisite: 11th level, fighter, Combat Superiority class feature
Benefit: Add your Wisdom modifier to damage rolls on Opportunity Attacks.

There how about that, seems more in line with what was intended by it in the first place. Rewards high wisdom while still being defender oriented.

Of course at the point its an entirely new feat, so you may as well just drop it and be done with it, IMO.

ukingsken · Feb 25, 2009

I have read through the entire Marked Scourge and in general I think we're making it out to be much more of a problem then it will be. Yeah you could build an entire character around abusing it and it could give you a good damage bonus with the burst 1 + action point combo.

But I don't think it's broken for two reasons. One the circumstance where you are going to be adjacent to much more then say... three enemies is super rare, at least in my experience. The other reason I think it's a good feat but not broken is because in order to even get close to "abusing it" like Covaithe said you need to be surrounded by level appropriate enemies. And I suppose that to me is also why it's a Defender thing. Only a Defender would be able to survive that.

So I guess my feeling is that it's fine as is because it just doesn't seem to me that it would come up often enough to be game breaking, especially when you have to focus so much on it and construct this multi adjacent enemy situation to really take advantage of it.

Like all of us its just my two cents but I cant help myself

Lord Sessadore · Feb 25, 2009

ukingsken said:
I have read through the entire Marked Scourge and in general I think we're making it out to be much more of a problem then it will be. Yeah you could build an entire character around abusing it and it could give you a good damage bonus with the burst 1 + action point combo.

But I don't think it's broken for two reasons. One the circumstance where you are going to be adjacent to much more then say... three enemies is super rare, at least in my experience. The other reason I think it's a good feat but not broken is because in order to even get close to "abusing it" like Covaithe said you need to be surrounded by level appropriate enemies. And I suppose that to me is also why it's a Defender thing. Only a Defender would be able to survive that.

So I guess my feeling is that it's fine as is because it just doesn't seem to me that it would come up often enough to be game breaking, especially when you have to focus so much on it and construct this multi adjacent enemy situation to really take advantage of it.

Like all of us its just my two cents but I cant help myself

Well, close burst powers are a culprit here, but certainly not the worst. The most abusive use of Marked Scourge is something like this:

Oni said:
Imagine if you will a tempest fighter/pitfigher multiclass ranger.
Off-Hand Strike or Ruffling Sting-->Rain of Blows-->AP-->Blade Cascade

That's 10 attacks in one round, at least 9 of which you've gotten to add your Wisdom mod to an extra time. It may seem like a small thing, but it can really add up.

You only need one target, and with that series of attacks (which, by itself, is a hefty sum of damage), you're probably adding 20-40 damage purely from Marked Scourge. More, if you hit a lot or have a high Wisdom.

Even without something like that, Marked Scourge + Pit Fighter lets you add your Wis bonus twice to nearly every attack. That's mostly why I don't like it.

CaBaNa · Feb 25, 2009

That does sound like alot of extra damage...

What is the cost for that particular combo?

Could Marked Scourge cause similar results even with a lower cost?

When explained that way, it almost makes it sound that with this, a defender may almost become a striker.

is that the case?

Lord Sessadore · Feb 26, 2009

The cost is: 4 feats (Ranger multiclass, power swaps for an encounter and daily power, and Marked Scourge), and picking Pit Fighter. Then, burning two encounter powers, and an action point for a daily (which happens to be the arguably most broken power in the PHB).

Well, I imagine that a fighter doing that is doing nearly as much damage as a ranger, or more. Even if the ranger was multiclassed to Fighter and also took the Pit Fighter PP, they're still missing an extra +Wis on almost all of those attacks.

Does that answer your question?

A thought on minor action attacks: Perhaps create a stipulation that you can't use more than one minor action attack power per round?

CaBaNa · Feb 26, 2009

That isn't very steep a price for that kind of combination once per day, and something similar (sans blade cascade) every encounter...

It brings a defender 4 feats and a paragon path from damaging like a striker. I like some cross class, but this borders on one character taking all the shine during combat. Strikers don't appreciate that.