Use a free action after a charge?

Mahali · Aug 22, 2009

Orcus Porkus said:
then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.
Taking away the free attack the PC rightfully earned is totally unpracticable and unfun. Any DM here who actually does that? I prefer common sense.

The free action can't take place after your turn ends. What allowed you to use the free action? That trigger that occured on your turn and your turn is over now. Might as well take your free action next turn, after all it triggered before and it just wasn't used.

We don't allow it in our games. We prefer common sense when it doesn't go against the rules. The rules are that when you charge you're done taking actions on your turn. Certainly everyone can see that.

DracoSuave · Aug 22, 2009

Um, no a Warden shouldn't be able to take his action to mark after the charge. He's already getting two movements and an attack. Good enough.

If it's a 'No Action' you can do it after the charge. If it is not a No Action, you cannot. It's really as simple as that: Anything that denies actions denies free actions.

Jhaelen · Aug 22, 2009

Mahali said:
The rules are that when you charge you're done taking actions on your turn. Certainly everyone can see that.

Nope, that's wrong.
You can still take an action point after a charge allowing you to take any kind of action you want.

Pbartender · Aug 22, 2009

Flipguarder said:
So your turn isn't over, but you can't take actions. Is it just me or is that kind of like saying, "I'm not done with school, but I've gone to all my classes and don't have any other school activities left." It's essentially speechcraft.

No, actually, it's a rather important distinction...

Your turn isn't over, and you can't take actions, but your enemies and allies still could, if they have any appropriate free actions available to them. While I can't see it be a very common scenario, there could very well be times when it would make a difference for some other character to take a free action in the space between your charge and the end of your turn.

Orcus Porkus said:
then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.

That depends on the specific free action granted. Some of these bonus free actions specify that they must occur on your your turn (specific overriding general).

Using the previously mentioned Nature's Wrath after a charge mark has come up several times in our game: it states, "Once during each of your turns, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action."

So, the Warden charges into the middle of a group of enemies and resolves his attack. He cannot mark them, since the charge prevents him from taking any additional actions on his turn. So, he ends his turn, and still can't mark because it's no longer his turn, even though normally you can take free actions outside your turn.

Pbartender · Aug 22, 2009

Jhaelen said:
Nope, that's wrong.
You can still take an action point after a charge allowing you to take any kind of action you want.

Correction: You can spend an action point after a charge, since that isn't an action in of itself, but you cannot use the extra action it grants you. Because you've charged, you cannot take any more actions that turn.

tiornys · Aug 22, 2009

Pbartender said:
Correction: You can spend an action point after a charge, since that isn't an action in of itself, but you cannot use the extra action it grants you. Because you've charged, you cannot take any more actions that turn.

So, I'll concede that it's possible to parse the relevant rules to get to this interpretation, but given that the text can also be parsed in two more liberal ways, I don't think it's valid to insist on this interpretation.

PHB said:
No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can't take any further actions this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action.

Spending an action point is a clear exception to the general rule that you can't take actions after a charge. The text is ambiguous as to whether the exception lets you a) spend the action point but not benefit from the extra action, b) spend the action point and benefit from the extra action only, or c) spend the action point and lift the restriction on taking other actions entirely. I think a) is the least intuitive interpretation, followed by c), with b) being almost certainly what was intended. The corner cases where spending an action point would be relevant if you couldn't take the extra action don't justify creating the exception in the first place.

t~

Pbartender · Aug 22, 2009

tiornys said:
Spending an action point is a clear exception to the general rule that you can't take actions after a charge.

Yes, it is... Forget the rest of your post. I brain-farted that extra little bit, "unless you spend an action point to take an extra action", which is perfectly clear.

You guys are right about that one.

Orcus Porkus · Aug 22, 2009

Mahali said:
The free action can't take place after your turn ends. What allowed you to use the free action? That trigger that occured on your turn and your turn is over now. Might as well take your free action next turn, after all it triggered before and it just wasn't used.

We don't allow it in our games. We prefer common sense when it doesn't go against the rules. The rules are that when you charge you're done taking actions on your turn. Certainly everyone can see that.

Where does it say in the rules that triggers for free actions have to take place outside your turn if you take the action outside your turn?

I say: The rules grant the barbarian the rampage attack, and swift charge. He earned those actions. Taking those away from him is a huge deal. It happens a lot, because barbarians charge a lot. You guys are basically invalidating half of those free attacks (the barbarian rightfully earned). You have two ways to justify that he gets these attacks despite the limiting charging rules: 1) Swift Charge and Rampage say so. You get the attacks - period. 2) The free action takes place after your turn is technically over. In limbo, or at the start of the next combatant's turn. Nothing game breaking, and only fair. As I said, nixing the barbarian's crucial class features is a really bad idea. Totally unfun!

Edit: Justification #3) The free action is "nested" inside the triggering action. It can't be separated from the trigger. In other words, the free action becomes part of the charge attack.

TDarien · Aug 22, 2009

Here's the thing. Spending an action point is itself a free action. A non-triggered free action, to boot. Now, yes, Charge does specifically say that spending an action point is allowed after the charge is completed, but doesn't this imply that other free actions are also allowed?

Going on the premise that only free actions are allowed if they are triggered, you could take some free actions triggered by your extra action. However, you couldn't use Elven Accuracy if you used your AP to take another attack, as this isn't a triggered action. This doesn't seem right to me.

It just seems silly to me that the rules were intended to allow you to spend certain types of free actions, and not others.

urzafrank · Aug 22, 2009

The way we play is pretty simple we that after a charge you lose any minor, move and standard actions you have left. So if you action point then charge bad times......the reason we chose this way is that without allowing free actions you cannot use the action point at all much less the action it generates. As the rules are quite unclear on this. We thought the was a simpler and more fun way to handle this rule. It also allows the use of any free action the can be used to gain another standard, move, or minor action to work as well.