Wall of Force question

We'd come across a red dragon (I can't be sure what age category, but it was size Huge), and I play the party wizard. I'd had a Wall of Force prepared. My thought was that if I cast the Wall of Force around the dragon, it would crash into the wall and fall to the ground since its flight maneuverability is "Poor", IIRC. My caster level is 16, so I figured I could only encircle 4 of the 6 sides of the dragon (in other words, to form a giant cube around it, except the top and bottom sides would be open). At best, it would only delay the dragon for a round, but I was hoping that would serve its purpose all the same.

However, the DM ruled that the spell did not have the "(S)" in its spell entry, and the only things it says is more or less "one 10-foot square of wall per caster level". My DM ruled that I had to create an absolutely flat, vertical wall (i.e. no turns, just a flat plane). Is he correct in this ruling, or can Wall of Force be created such that it would encircle a size-huge red dragon on all four sides, given 4 sides x 4 (10-foot) squares = 16 (10-foot) squares per level?

After having the "encircle the dragon" tactic shot down, I tried just placing the wall immediately in front of the dragon to result in the same effect: Dragon (with its not-so-great Maneuverability) crashes into wall, and falls to the ground. The DM felt he should get a reflex save just as with Wall of Stone, but of course Wall of Force has no Save and no SR--which is precisely the reason I selected it. He gave up on that avenue and went with another....

He ruled that I could only create the wall so that it touched the ground, but the dragon was 30 feet up in the air. ...The rules don't say anything at all about requiring the wall to be based on the ground (especially since it has no mass, and cannot be moved), one way or another.

At this point I was pretty frustrated; it felt like my creative tactics were getting shot down in favor of the dragon getting to fly around over us at the DM's will. Since we'd already spent a half hour scouring books, and I could tell the rest of the players were about as annoyed as I was frustrated, I gave up and just switched to my handy-dandy Wand of Lesser Orb of Cold.....

How should this have gone down, from a "RAW" standpoint? ...I suppose I can see the DM's side of things on the first point, since there's no "Shapable" denotation in the spell's description, but what about the rest?

Wall of Force

Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration: 1 round /level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage's disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
Wall of force can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Material Component: A pinch of powder made from a clear gem.

Yeah, by RAW the Wall of Force must be flat and vertical... though it doesn't say anything about being supported by something (as a Wall of Stone must be merged with stone). Though, if you're casting a spell of this level, you must be 9th or 10th level, at least - which means you could make a 10' wide x 90' high Wall (for example). And the if the dragon's only 30' up....

Maybe the dragon should have been allowed a Spot check (DC 40 to spot an invisible inanimate object) to see the wall and avoid? Not sure,

the_orc_within said:

Yeah, by RAW the Wall of Force must be flat and vertical... though it doesn't say anything about being supported by something (as a Wall of Stone must be merged with stone). Though, if you're casting a spell of this level, you must be 9th or 10th level, at least - which means you could make a 10' wide x 90' high Wall (for example). And the if the dragon's only 30' up....

Maybe the dragon should have been allowed a Spot check (DC 40 to spot an invisible inanimate object) to see the wall and avoid? Not sure,

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Yeah, wall of force and wall of fire don't say they need to be supported and they're both evocation (as opposed to conjuration which states it cannot appear floating in an empty space.) I have always ruled they need to be on the ground though. The DC 40 spot check seems reasonable.

the_orc_within said:

Yeah, by RAW the Wall of Force must be flat and vertical... though it doesn't say anything about being supported by something (as a Wall of Stone must be merged with stone). Though, if you're casting a spell of this level, you must be 9th or 10th level, at least - which means you could make a 10' wide x 90' high Wall (for example). And the if the dragon's only 30' up....

Maybe the dragon should have been allowed a Spot check (DC 40 to spot an invisible inanimate object) to see the wall and avoid? Not sure,

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All seems pretty reasonable to me. For a typical huge red dragon, ranging from about 19 to 25 hit dice, the Spot check would range from fairly difficult to fairly easy. If he spots it, I'd look at his maneuverability, speed, and figure out if he could turn enough to avoid hitting it or not. Figure he may also have Wingover, which means, that if he spots the wall, it's actually easy to avoid.
Had the dragon missed the spot check, I'd have had him run smack into the wall and take some nominal damage (just a few d6s based on the collision and fall). It wouldn't be much, but it would be enough to get him out of the air for the time being.

I agree with your DM on the first part as the spell has no (S) and it says:

The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane...

Seemingly, this is your only option.

As to the second, the only thing I can find in the spell that even suggests that the spell has to be at ground level is this:

(though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings)

It doesn't exactly say "must be created on the ground"; and even though this sentence suggests it, I would not make casters stretch the wall from floor to ceiling because it would stop non-ethereal creatures (without some other way than mundane movement).

I say, hovering invisible walls would be okay. Other than a little damage (comparatively) and an embarassing pratfall; the dragon should be fine. It had to be flying at least at half speed (75 ft.) and would have fallen 30 ft. for a total of 7d6 crashing damage and 3d6 falling damage, which is pretty skimpy for a 5th level spell until you factor in the "not flying anymore" thingy.

Ciao,
Dave

You placed the wall of force on your own turn I'm guessing? IMHO it will take a readied action while the victim is running to get someone to slam into a barrier they can percieve.

Dragon has blindsense and thus when it takes its turn, it knows the wall is there.

If dragon has the Hover or Wingover feats, it can use one of those. Indeed I suspect dragons were given those insane fly speeds so they can hover as a default tactic.

If the dragon did not have Hover or Wingover then it would have to land at the end of it's turn or fall. If it was really high up it would get a reflex save to stop the fall part way down

Wall of force does not need an anchor.

but of course Wall of Force has no Save and no SR--which is precisely the reason I selected it

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Wall of force does not give a save because it can't be used to trap someone. If you try using it to have a victim slam into it, how that will work is up to the DM.

frankthedm said:

Wall of force does not need an anchor.

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So you're saying wall of force and wall of fire (I add this can because the description is similar) can be cast in midair? Is this because it is not expressly stated in the spell description or is there some other source for this ruling?

Abciximab said:

So you're saying wall of force and wall of fire (I add this can because the description is similar) can be cast in midair? Is this because it is not expressly stated in the spell description or is there some other source for this ruling?

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Well...

The description of the Conjuration school includes the line:

SRD said:

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

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The entire description of Evocation in that same section of the SRD is:

SRD said:

Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.

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.

The school of Conjuration is specifically restricted to putting things where they are supported; Evocation isn't.

If you get into individual spells, Wall of Iron and Wall of Stone obviously inherit from the school description; Wall of Ice specifies it must be "anchored", Wall of Fire doesn't specify, Wall of Force doesn't specify, and Prismatic Wall doesn't specify either (which is an Abjuration, but ignoring that...).

For the specific spell in question, it isn't specified; surrounding text suggests that Wall of Force doesn't have the same limitations as Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone, but that is far from explicit, so technically it's a DM call. Of course, Fireball doesn't specify it can be placed in a 3-d location, completely unanchored, either. Would you prevent someone from detonating one fifty feet in the air?

Yeah, I looked at invocation vs conjuration and couldn't come up with a good answer. I would certainly allow a fireball to go off fifty feet up, but its instantaneous.

technically it's a DM call

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This is what I was thinking but I was hoping for a clear indication one way or the other. I don't see any problems with a wall of fire/wall of force in mid air. Kind of a cool effect and only limited usefulness.

As an aside, I wonder why I keep forgetting dragons have Blindsense. Everytime I read it/hear about it I smack my forehead. (At least 3 times so far). Perhaps it's because it's one of those generic dragon abilities at the beginning of the dragon descriptive text. Good thing my players never use invisibility (Oh, maybe that's why I never remember it).