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Thread: Proposal: Dragon 372
Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 01:06 PM #1
Defender (Lvl 8)
Proposal: Dragon 372
I would like to propose Dragon 372, "available" here. I say ""available"" because, unfortunately, it does require a DDI subscription to read.
The articles that specifically need approving are these:
Playing Shadar-kai, which contains Shadar-kai racial feats, racial paragon paths, and spiked chain mastery feats. A couple issues that should be looked at are whether Reaper's Touch can be taken by non-Shadar-kai, and to how the ban on double weapons should interact with the spiked chain training feat (which allows you to use the spiked chain as a light blade and a double weapon).
Secrets of the Entombed City, which contains a number of necromantic flavored powers for several classes.
Deities and Demigods: Bane, which contains a channel divinity feat and a paragon path for Bane-worshipers. Naturally, we would need to reflavor these, possible to whatever our version of Ares is called.
Masters of the Planes, which contains several epic destinies. Yeah, a long way off, but might as well get the entire article down in one go.
How much of a problem is the DDI subscription going to be? I know we were talking about this in General Discussion.
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Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 01:36 PM #2
Acolyte (Lvl 2)
Can't say much here, but I know the effect of reaper's touch and it seems a bit problematic to me.
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Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 04:12 PM #3
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
reapers touch is what arcane classes take because they have no Melee Basic Attack...
Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 05:01 PM #4
Defender (Lvl 8)
People who use weapons with strength, and don't need a feat to have a strong MBA.
People who use weapons with not-strength, and can take Melee Training for a MBA.
People who can take Reaper's Touch, who can take Reaper's Touch for a MBA.
Wisdom-based clerics who could take Melee Training but won't necessarily have a good melee weapon to go with it.
I have no strong feelings one way or the other on this feat. Are we saying that any race can take it, since it doesn't say "Shadar-kai only" as strongly as the other feats in the article do?
Oh, for any non-subscribers* who are wondering, Reaper's Touch allows Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, and Invokers to use their RBA At-wills as a MBA as well. In case that wasn't clear.
**Joking! I'm sure you're lovely people.
Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 05:58 PM #5
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
don't forget there may eventually be sorcerous blade channeling for the sorcerer to use a RBA as a MBA.
Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 06:00 PM #6
Reaper's Touch: I think this feat should be Shadar-Kai only. It's in an article about Shadar-Kai, every other feat in the article has "Shadar-Kai" as a prereq, and there's nothing about the flavour of this feat that makes it seem LESS shadar-kai specific than the others. It's gotta be a typo that they forgot "Shadar-Kai" in the prereqs.
Mechanically, I don't know much about the other classes, but I know a little something about close-combat warlocks. It's already possible to make a warlock that's very effective in close combat. The balancing factor is that your major attacks are all ranged, so you'll draw a lot of OA's. I think allowing this feat in general might make this option too powerful and less tactically interesting, since you can stay up close to help flank/hurt with Armour of Agathys/get Prime Shot without needing to decide whether it's worth drawing an OA to attack.
On the other hand, the most powerful close-up Warlock build I know is a Dwarven Infernal Warlock who uses a Pact Craghammer with Dwarven Weapon Training to get a strong melee basic attack it can use when up close. Now with Melee Training they can even base that attack on Con. It's annoying when building chars that they outshine other races by so much for this option - I tried building a Warforged close-up warlock once, and without Dwarven Weapon Training it couldn't come close. So maybe opening up Reaper's Touch would just allow non-Dwarves some parity.
On the gripping hand, Dwarven Weapon Training + Melee Training + Pact Craghammer is 2 feats and an expensive magic item, while Reaper's Touch lets you do Eldritch Blast damage in melee right away at level 1. So I think I still prefer to restrict it.
Now, I have no problem with a Shadar-Kai Warlock getting this ability because their stat bonuses are very non-optimal for Warlocks, so they're giving something up in exchange. It makes them a bit more viable without putting them over the top.
I also don't have a problem with the spiked chain as a double-weapon. It's a full Weapon Mastery feat path, not just a single Superior Weapon Proficiency feat, and having it as one of a very few double weapons gives it more uniqueness. It doesn't have the multiple-weapon-types (both Heavy Blade and Light Blade) problems of the double sword, or even the Defensive property, which was the main thing that got them banned. The only other thing I recall being a worry was that having both ends count as off-hand makes a Tempest fighter too strong, but this is only 2d4 damage weapon so it's not overpowering - for 1 feat you could be using a Waraxe in your main hand and a Scourge in your off-hand (main: +2 hit, 1d12+1 damage - avg 7.5, max 13, off: +3 hit, 1d8+2 damage - avg 6.5, max 10) or you could have a Spiked Chain counting as two off-hands (+4 hit, 2d4+2 damage each - avg 7, max 10, with reach). That's 10% chance more to hit but a fair amout less damage with one attack, and 5% more chance to hit and just slightly more avg damage with the other. Better, but I'd say not overpoweringly so. It's certainly not as bad as the Urgrosh.
Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 06:23 PM #7
Defender (Lvl 8)
Here is a thread where people discussed it. In my opinion, with SBC Acid Orb can be a non-basic melee attack. I don't really see how it becomes a MBA, since Acid Orb's special rule allows it to be used as a RBA, not a basic attack that happens to be ranged.
Argh, but this should be in the PHB2 thread (just like Reaper's Strike was supposed to be here). Who would have thought there was so much cross-over?
Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 11:25 PM #8
Well, as far as Sorcerous Blade Channeling + RBA = MBA. I can see both arguments there. It's have to be a judgment call until some kind of official word comes out.
As far as Reaper's Touch, I wouldn't mind letting it stay for non-Shadar-Kai. I don't see much difference between a warlock with a mace & melee training and a warlock with Reaper's Touch. Both get you an effective melee attack for 1 feat. Damage is close [d8+1 vs d10], leaving defenses for a difference [AC vs ref]. So power seems about the same and Reaper's Touch just sounds a lot cooler than a mace.
Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009, 11:50 PM #9
Defender (Lvl 8)
Well, except a warlock with Reaper's Touch only needs one magic weapon to be effective (rod/wand), while the warlock with the mace needs two, because the mace isn't an implement. Oh course, the weapon warlock could get a Pact Rapier instead of a mace, which is also pretty cool.
Thursday, 4th June, 2009, 12:33 AM #10
Or pick up Arcane Implement Proficiency [heavy blades] and Fullblade proficiency. That way you can get any enchantment on that sword. Make it a tiefling, use a flaming sword and add hellfire blood too...
Granted that's 4 feats, but it sounds cool.
d12, high crit melee attacks with a +3 prof bonus!
Every attack uses cha and gets +1 hit and damage!