Proposal: Arcane Power

Kalidrev · Jul 21, 2009

Covaith,

I see where you are coming from, but what is the difference between pushing an enemy from 2C to 2H in your example, or pushing the enemy from 2C to 2H through the SAME spell, but with the wall positioned from 1D down to 3D, right to 3E and up to 1E, then right to 1F and down to 2F (total of 8 squares just like your example) and having the wizard and badguy positioned just like you had them and pushed with thunderlance the same distance to the right? The badguy would be pushed right through 3 contiguous squares of fire, even though it would "technically" be 3 seprate walls of fire? If that works just like your example, then what would be the difference between doing either of THOSE two examples and simply pushing an enemy from, say 4D diagonal up-right to space 0(zero)H? Though he's only going through one "wall" of fire, the enemy would still be traveling through the exact same number of fire filled squares.

Basically what I'm asking (in this example) is: Shouldn't each square be treated as it's own zone/space regardless of it's relative position in relation to other squares of the same effect?

JoeNotCharles · Jul 21, 2009

Holy @#$^#$ I hate stealth errata.

Ok, here's the situation with Grease:

There is no errata. The version in the Compendium is identical to the printed version, except instead of "You can make the following attack, using..." it says, "You can use the Grease Attack power, using..." Then it has a power header: "Grease Attack: At-Will + Arcane, Implement, Zone", followed by the exact same power as in the printed version, with the extra line, "Requirement: The Grease power must be active to use this power."

For Planar Gateway, exactly the same situation except the new power header says "Encounter". Which takes care of my problems with that one.

Illusory Wall has some minor wording differences, but the effect seems identical, except the Compendium version says "Sustain Minor: You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter," while AP just says, "The wall persists."

I haven't checked if any other powers are different, and I'm not going to. I think we should clarify in the charter (if it's not clear already) that the official versions are the ones in the published books, with the published errata, not whatever the Compendium happens to say this week. (Which means character judges must be sure to check the books and not the compendium wherever possible.)

Also, after the wall I agree that we shouldn't make a ruling on slides in general - too many cases we'd need to consider.

So if I was going to propose AP (which I'm not, because I want to vote) I'd add these alterations:

As AP is accepted, remove the Illusions article, since it's been overridden.

Grease: change Hit to "...slide the target 2 squares and knock it prone." Add "Special: Forced movement caused by this power does not trigger this power again."

Illusory Wall: change "on its current turn, but it can try again on later turns" to "until it is attacked again and missed".

Planar Gateway: Add "Once per encounter" before "You may make the following attack..."

This hasn't officially been proposed yet, right?

elecgraystone · Jul 21, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
This hasn't officially been proposed yet, right?

I officially propose we adopt the Arcane Power Book. Vote away JoeNotCharles!

JoeNotCharles said:
I think we should clarify in the charter (if it's not clear already) that the official versions are the ones in the published books, with the published errata, not whatever the Compendium happens to say this week. (Which means character judges must be sure to check the books and not the compendium wherever possible.)

Two thumbs up here!

I'll add these alterations to the proposal for AP so everyone can vote on them {not that i agree with all of them}.

Proposal said:
As AP is accepted, remove the Illusions article, since it's been overridden."

{100% agree}

Proposal said:
Grease: change Hit to "...slide the target 2 squares and knock it prone." Add "Special: Forced movement caused by this power does not trigger this power again."

{I'd keep the spell as written with the following line added to the miss line. "This movement does not trigger another attack form the Grease spell."}

Proposal said:
Illusory Wall: change "on its current turn, but it can try again on later turns" to "until it is attacked again and missed"

{simply change to "Whenever an enemy moves adjacent to the wall or starts his turn adjacent to the wall"}

Proposal said:
Planar Gateway: Add "Once per encounter" before "You may make the following attack..."

CaBaNa · Jul 21, 2009

I'm ok, not thrilled with the JNC version... But that is what compromise is all about... So I'd support it.

As for which source (book/compendium) to use, I think whatever is the most up to date.

elecgraystone · Jul 21, 2009

CaBaNa said:
As for which source (book/compendium) to use, I think whatever is the most up to date.

The big issue there is that non-DDI people only have the books + errata and NO way to know if a more up to date version is available. If we use the compendium as the rules source for anything, players and DM's are left guessing if their characters/adventures are up to date. It also leads to arguments like we had CaBaNa, where you were right by the DDI and I was right by the book + errata and we had NO idea why the other person is arguing.

JoeNotCharles · Jul 22, 2009

CaBaNa said:
As for which source (book/compendium) to use, I think whatever is the most up to date.

Sometimes it's not clear which is the most up-to-date, though. Sometimes there are typos in the Compendium that take a while to fix. If you spot a difference, is it an intentional update or is it just a mistake?

Anyway, I found another question (a minor one) about familiars:

N0Man said:
Consider the following:

Akunal background: You gain resist 2 cold, resist 2 fire, and resist 2 thunder (or your existing resistance to these damages types increases by 2).

Book Imp familiar: You gain resist fire 5. If you already have resist fire, increase your resistance by 2.

What is your fire resist?

Since you are level 1, and you are taking these at the same time, which "already have" or "existing resistance" is first?

Does the background apply first for +2? If so, does that mean that that the Imp grants you +2 (since you already have resist) for a total of 4? If that's the case, then it means your background bonus is actually penalizing you 1 point.

Or does the Imp's apply first and give a +2 to the +5 imp resist for +7 total?

We don't allow that background, but there could be other situations where someone has a Book Imp and some other feat or item which gives "X fire resistance or +Y if you already have fire resistance". I think we should just say it gives whichever is better for the player. This is something the character judges would have to hash out anyway, not a DM during an adventure. I just wanted to make a note of it.

Mainly, I don't think we should interpret "if you already have resist fire" as "if you have resist fire already before you take the Familiar feat", because then you start getting different results depending on the order you take things in. It should just mean "if you have fire resistance from another source".

elecgraystone · Jul 22, 2009

Personally I'd go with the combination that adds up to the highest amount. So for the example you give, it would be 7. Any other way, and you end up LOSING resistance over someone that didn't start out with any.

garyh · Jul 22, 2009

I agree with JNC and elec on that. Take the combination that's most advantageous to the PC.

Dunamin · Jul 22, 2009

Ditto.

I would think the designers had intended for such class options to increase rather than reduce character potency, regardless of whether the wording should suggest it.

renau1g · Jul 22, 2009

I agree, but the CB actually puts it in at Resist 4 for the above. Not that it's 100% accurate, but just throwing it out there. Weird how it costs you. As for what order things would go in, your background is always first because well...it's your origin. Then you learn your moves/feats/powers.