Proposal: Warlock At-Wills

elecgraystone · Jul 8, 2009

Edited Proposal
At TwoHeadsBarking's suggestion, I've altered the proposal to this:

Allow warlocks to choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.

Original Proposal
My proposal is a simple one. That we allow warlock to be treated like everyone else and let them retrain their at-wills. This isn't technically possible now because WOTC gave the at-wills as class features. I see no reason to treat them differently from everyone else.

With the likely inclusion of the new powers from the PH Heroes Series 1 [3 yes votes vs 0 no votes], a new 'generic' at-will will be here. I'd much rather have Ts'iri keep her Eldritch Blast and retrain her Hellish Rebuke into the new Eldritch Strike instead of the option to switch Eldritch Strike for Eldritch Blast as is being talked about in the PH Heroes Series 1 proposal thread.

JoeNotCharles · Jul 8, 2009

I don't like this idea at all, as it's a fundamental change in the way warlocks work. I'll hold my vote until there's some discussion, but I'm inclined to vote no.

Ozymandias79 · Jul 8, 2009

sorry, Elecgraystone, but I actually agrees with JNC on this one subject

Ozy

TwoHeadsBarking · Jul 8, 2009

On a somewhat related note, what about making Dire Radiance work like Eldritch blast, so you can use either Charisma or Con with it.

Right now, if you want to go Starlock and not tank your AC, Charisma/Int is the way to go. The Dragon article and AP added enough Charisma-based star powers that you rarely need to go to other pacts (I think there are one or two levels where this is not the case) to get your powers. There's even a single ability Starlock paragon path. But you're still stuck with Dire Radiance as one of your two at-wills. Can't train out of it, and you probably won't ever hit with it since you aren't boosting your Con and it's against Fort. So I hope you like Eldritch Blast.

None of the other pacts have to deal with this, since they can all go [primary]/Int. In fact, I don't think that any other class needs to worry about their class feature screwing over their at-wills, assuming intelligent character building. The paladin is in a similar boat, but at least he gets both his at-wills regardless of whether he's going Strength or Charisma.

Oh, and you can't do a pure Starlock with Con/Int, in case you're curious. Not enough powers, so you'll constantly be dabbling in Infernal and Vestige.

elecgraystone · Jul 8, 2009

If that's the way you guys feel then fine. I just don't see a mechanical or background reason for it myself. A storm magic sorcerer doesn't HAVE to take lightning/thunder at-will. [or the dragon magic one have to take burning spray or the chaos one have to take chaos bolt].

I'd REALLY like to switch out Hellish Rebuke for Eldritch Strike [or just about anything else :-S

]. I love everything else about infernal warlocks but I just despise that power. It's just inferior and redundant to Eldritch Blast [I don't think I've EVER had the extra damage activate and WAY more things are fire resistant! :-S

], so it just sits there, useless. Sigh... I feel like the CHA Starlock that TwoHeadsBarking talked about, having an unused power.

How would you guys feel about a feat to do it then? Eldritch Striker that lets you switch your pact at will with Eldritch Strike? All I'd be getting over melee training is a push 1 and I'd be dropping Hellish Rebuke. Sound fair? You could also make a 'charismatic star lock' feat to change Dire Radiance to using CHA.

JoeNotCharles · Jul 8, 2009

As a Starlock I've rarely used Dire Radiance either. I think all the warlock at-wills are inferior to Eldritch Blast except in certain situations.

I do like TwoHeadsBarking's idea, though: it means with the Dark and Vestige pacts, you have two Con-based builds, two Cha-based builds, and one that can completely go either way (instead of one that can have both or lean Con-ward, but not Cha-ward). On the other hand, I like the flavour idea that you need a high constitution to withstand the forces from beyond you're playing with... (But he should propose it separately in a different thread.)

elecgraystone · Jul 8, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
I think all the warlock at-wills are inferior to Eldritch Blast except in certain situations.

I'll disagree with you on that. Eyebite rocks all the time and targets will, Dire Radiance deals radiant damage [few resistances AND bonus damage to undead] and targets fort plus it's extra damage activates fairly easily without hurting you, and Spiteful Glammer actually does more damage on an undamaged foe and it targets will.

All are a pretty good alternative to Eldritch Blast. Hellish Rebuke? Crappy damage that lots of things have a resistance to, it targets the same defense as Eldritch Blast and the special effect only triggers if I'm getting beat up. Boy am I excited...

I was happy to see Eldritch Strike proposed, but it looks like I'll have to go with melee training. I can't see losing Eldritch blast and only having Hellish Rebuke as my only ranged at will.

TwoHeadsBarking · Jul 8, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
I think all the warlock at-wills are inferior to Eldritch Blast except in certain situations.

Well, yeah, that's kind of the point. Your default attack is Eldritch Blast, and you use a different one if you think you can get good use out of the special effect. Well, except for Spiteful Glamor, which steps on Blast's toes a lot.

I dunno, maybe Ata keeps putting me in situations where the pact at-wills get to shine, but I've been finding them to be incredibly useful. If I can peg a melee combatant with Dire Radiance before they get into close combat, then they're in trouble. Yeah, it sort of sucks that I have to get beat up for Hellish Rebuke to work, but right now I have as much hp as the defenders, and that's not counting the temp hp I frequently have on me. I can take the hit. And yes, fire's one of the poorer damage types (like third or fourth worst), but fire resist isn't that common. You just happen to be fighting fire beetles.

Elec, aren't you planning on taking Sacrifice to Caiphon? That's some pretty fun synergy right there.

As for needing high Con to deal with otherworldly forces, both the 3.x Warlock and Binder used Cha as their main stat, not Con. Make of it what you will.

What if the proposal was changed to something like this:

Warlock can choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, ~~Hideous Blow~~ Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.

JoeNotCharles · Jul 8, 2009

In Echoes of O I kept looking for a time to use Dire Radiance, but we were always spread out enough that if I stopped it from coming after me it would just go after someone else, at right angles to me. And being pretty melee-heavy myself, I was rarely in a situation where I wanted an enemy to go after an ally in preference to me.

elecgraystone · Jul 8, 2009

TwoHeadsBarking said:
Elec, aren't you planning on taking Sacrifice to Caiphon? That's some pretty fun synergy right there.

Hadn't planned on it, but now that it's back in it might be an option.

TwoHeadsBarking said:
Yeah, it sort of sucks that I have to get beat up for Hellish Rebuke to work, but right now I have as much hp as the defenders, and that's not counting the temp hp I frequently have on me.

Oh, I have plenty of HP and temp HP and I getting hit a lot. However I'm in melee quite a bit and when I'm hit I'm in melee combat. If I'm at range, I'm not getting hit. Firing off a hellish Rebuke in melee means I grant a OA. Getting hit twice so I can do an extra d6 + mod damage isn't worth it.

TwoHeadsBarking said:
What if the proposal was changed to something like this:

Warlock can choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, ~~Hideous Blow~~ Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.

I'd be all for that. I was just looking to pick up the two generic ones and not have my pact power. Since my original proposal didn't go over well, I'll go ahead and change my first post to add this.