Hero of the Faith: Broken, or just Unbalanced and in need of meds? You decide.

JoeNotCharles · Aug 17, 2009

Tinwe said:
Edit: Oh, and speaking of Barbarians, here's the example of an encounter-long MC benefit that people were asking for earlier:

Granted it's 1/day. It's still encounter-long.

Well, whaddaya know.

Ok, I'm now leaning toward the idea that they meant to make HoF 1/day but made a typo. Regardless, we might as well ban it until the errata - that worked well for Battlerage Vigor.

(To everybody who's saying, "If you're so sure they're gonna errata it, why not just allow it and let them?" - it took AGES to errata Battlerage Vigor and Rain of Blows. I'm sure it'll happen eventually, but they might not get around to it until next year.)

Tinwe · Aug 17, 2009

You know, I'm going to change my mind on this one. I would take the feat as written if I were minmaxxing (and go Stormwarden, foregoing fighter powers. Actually, if I were minmaxxing, I'd use the background that allows two MC feats, but that's neither here nor there).

Having crunched the numbers (assuming a 1d10 weapon, a +4 primary mod, hit on a 11 and a crit on a 20), HotF as written is a 60% dpr increase from baseline, as compared to the Barb MC's 20% increase from baseline. Even counting for the inability to use it on multiple targets, the high wisdom requirement and the requirement to be the only one adjacent to the enemy, I feel that's too high, especially when considering that it will invariably be used to land dailies and AP attacks.

renau1g said:
That is a big difference as is the +2 to damage, vs the (essentially) +5 to hit.

Just to clarify the math, here- rolling two dice per attack is equivalent to +3.95 to hit, not +5. A crit always hits, though, so the combined probabilities in a "hit on 11, crit on 20" attack shift from
50% miss, 45% hit, 5% crit
to
20.5% miss, 69.75% hit, 9.75% crit

As I mentioned above, this translates into a 60% dpr increase on a melee basic, as compared to the Barb MC (or weapon focus) bump of 20% dpr.

Edit: Whoops! Realized I punched in the wrong number on the windows calculator. Doing probability at work ftl.

renau1g · Aug 17, 2009

Thanks for the clarification Tinwe on the to-hit increase. I saw a few people batting it around as the equiv to +5 to hit.

Kalidrev · Aug 17, 2009

I actually have done the math on this one. Here's what I came up with. The left number is 1d20 and the second number is 2d20. The number in parenthesis is the bonus to-hit in solid number form (I apologize for the horrible looking chart!)

Code:

DC 10

    
Bonus  1 d20/2 d20's      
+4   75%/94%      (+3.8)
+5   80%/96%      (+3.2)
+6   85%/97.75% (+2.55)
+7   90%/99%      (+1.8)
+8   95%/99.75% (+0.95) (Data is the same for higher bonuses)



Bonus     DC 15
+4   50%/75%      (+4)
+5   55%/79.75% (+4.95)
+6   60%/84%      (+4.8)
+7   65%/87.75% (+4.55)
+8   70%/91%      (+4.2)
+9   75%/93%      (+3.6)
+10 80%/96%      (+3.2)
+11 85%/97.75    (+2.55)
+12 90%/99%      (+1.8)
+13 95%/99.75%  (+.95) (Data is the same for higher bonuses)


Bonus     DC 20
+4   25%/43.75%   (+3.75)
+5   30%/51%        (+4.2)
+6   35%/57.75%   (+4.55)
+7   40%/64%        (+4.8)
+8   45%/69.75%   (+4.95)
+9   50%/75%        (+5)
+10 55%/79.75%    (+4.95)
+11 60%/84%        (+4.8)
+12 65%/87.75%   (+4.55)
+13 70%/91%        (+4.2)
+14 75%/93.75%   (+3.75)
+15 80%/96%        (+3.2)

Bonus     DC 25
+4   5%/9.75%       (+1.95)
+5   5%/9.75%       (+1.95)
+6   10%/19%        (+1.8)
+7   15%/27.75%   (+2.55)
+8   20%/36%        (+3.2)
+9   25%/43.75%   (+3.75)
+10 30%/51%        (+4.2)
+11 35%/57.75%   (+4.55)
+12 40%/64%        (+4.8)
+13 45%/69.75%   (+4.95)
+14 50%/75%        (+5)
+15 55%/79.75      (+4.95)

So from what it looks like, you are going to get somewhere between a +.95 to a +5 bonus, but it's certainly not like a solid +5 bonus to hit. It averages out to be about a +3.5 bonus

Velmont · Aug 17, 2009

Average is above 3.5. What you consider, it is the player will fall on DC that range from I always do it to I always fail it. In 4e, you will most of the time fall in something hard (need a 15 on my die roll) to something easy (I need 5). It is the exception when you have to roll for an easier DC or harder DC, or you are not doing something you were meant to do (like a wizard trying to hit a soldier monster with his staff, using his Str for an AoO).

In that case, I would only consider the table DC20 you have done, which give me more the impression it is something more around +4 to +4.5.

ryryguy · Aug 17, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
Well, whaddaya know.

Ok, I'm now leaning toward the idea that they meant to make HoF 1/day but made a typo. Regardless, we might as well ban it until the errata - that worked well for Battlerage Vigor.

I agree, cutting it to 1/day would put it much more in line with other MC feats. Allowing it per encounter, to end-of-encounter is just a huge jump over the original Avenger MC feat, that the extra two points of Wisdom does very little to offset. And that's before even considering the expanded skill choice.

I would have no problem with "ban until errata" as well. Or, make it exactly the same as the original Avenger MC feat as far as the Oath power goes, but with the higher Wisdom requirement plus expanded skill selection.

But "ban until errata" is easiest. I also consider that it's still possible for someone to access Avenger as a multiclass and also gain access to the Oath feature in the more limited form of the original feat. It seems to me that is important since it should still be good for most Avenger multiclass concepts. And when/if HotF is errata'ed, you could always just retrain to that.