Alchemy instead of Ritual Casting.

Kzach · Oct 2, 2009

When swapping ritual casting for alchemy, do the class bonus rituals transform into bonus alchemical formulas?

For instance, if I choose Alchemy instead of Ritual Casting as a 1st-level wizard, do I get two alchemical formulas for free like I would get two free rituals in my ritual book? And do the bonus rituals for the wizard levels morph into bonus alchemical formulas?

What about for clerics?

Are there special bardic alchemical formulas?

AbdulAlhazred · Oct 2, 2009

I'd say strictly going by RAW the answer would be no, if you swap Ritual Caster for Alchemy you just wouldn't get your bonus rituals since you don't have a ritual book. Of course that probably isn't the best answer and I think I'd be happy to do a swap like that.

As for clerics... hmmm. Generally speaking alchemy doesn't seem like much of a "clericy" kind of thing, but that aside I don't see why if there was a cleric of some appropriate belief system that they couldn't have 2 appropriate alchemical formulae instead of rituals. In a sense though rituals for clerics seem sort of integral to them acting in their priestly capacity. I guess its really just up to you to decide what makes sense in a given setting.

I presume you mean by bardic ones that have key skills which bards would likely take. The answer is no, the key skills are just mostly arcana, nature, religion, and thievery. However its really never explained what the point of key skills for alchemy is. ALL alchemical formulae have them listed as (no check), so the only point of listing them in theory is for ingredients. Oddly though they list several key skills (thievery being prominent) which don't associate with any type of ingredient and thus we are actually a bit in the dark as to what that means.

Kzach · Oct 2, 2009

AbdulAlhazred said:
I presume you mean by bardic ones that have key skills which bards would likely take.

No, there are specific rituals that only bards can use. They're significantly more useful and more powerful than regular rituals. Since this is such a boon for the class it would seem only logical that there would be bard-only alchemy formulas.

Byronic · Oct 2, 2009

Kzach said:
No, there are specific rituals that only bards can use. They're significantly more useful and more powerful than regular rituals. Since this is such a boon for the class it would seem only logical that there would be bard-only alchemy formulas.

What do you think are the most useful Bard rituals then?

Ryujin · Oct 2, 2009

Byronic said:
What do you think are the most useful Bard rituals then?

Just off the top of my head from Heroic tier:

Glib Limerick - roll twice for Bluff and take the best number

Anthem of Unity - get the whole town out to make repairs to the walls, before the enemy strikes

Song of Sustenance - feed up to 10 creatures and give them +5 to Endurance for 2 days

Lullaby - mess with creatures Perception checks, based on how well you roll on Arcana. A pickpocket's dream.

And to top it off you get to cast one of them for free at Heroic, 2 at Paragon, and 3 at Epic.

Kzach · Oct 2, 2009

Yeah, and that's a pretty huge thing to give up just for plain old alchemy. The same for wizards who get free rituals. Arguably, alchemy is more useful than rituals, but certainly not so much more useful that it warrants not giving something to compensate for taking alchemy over ritual casting.

Ryujin · Oct 2, 2009

It was enough to tip the balance when I was thinking about MCing as Bard with my skilltastic Warlock. Our Archer Ranger went for Alchemy because it's cheaper, and more quick-and-dirty. He wanted to convince our GM to allow him to make poisons and he actually had pretty good luck with Ghoststrike Oil last combat, while I was sinking useless damage into a trio of Wraiths.

On the original question it doesn't seem to specify that you get two free alchemical fomulae, but I think that it would be wrong to not provide them in the interest of basic fairness.

Eric Finley · Oct 5, 2009

I completely concur. By RAW no, by reasonableness yes. For those classes where one of the rituals is forced, just try to find an appropriate alchemical equivalent... for example, Antivenom for clerics, Healing Poultice for Druids, etc.

(I also strongly feel that Brew Magic Potion should be removed from one's campaign and Alchemy rituals added for every consumable magic item. Otherwise Ritual Magic is so much better - at what is basically Alchemy's job - that it's not even funny.)

Kelvor Ravenstar · Oct 5, 2009

This just recently came up in my latest campaign at character creation. On of my players wanted to swap her Ritual Casting feature for Alchemy, and I gave her three alchemical formulas to start with.
It may not be RAW, but I encouraged it because Rituals haven't seen much use in my 4e games yet, and I'm hoping the alchemical items will be more attractive.
I like the idea of alchemy being able to make magic potions, maybe I'll have to work up some rules for potions as alchemical formulas for that player. I'll probably put a prerequisite of Power Source: Arcane on some formulas, and Divine on some others.

DracoSuave · Oct 6, 2009

Avoid power sources on potions.

There's nothing Power Source A can do that Power Source B can't (in terms of potions)

Potion of Healing? There's more Arcane healers than Divine healers.
Resistance? That's in both.
Explosions? Invokers might have a word with that.

And also, don't forget Power Source C: Primal, and D: Psionics can do that stuff too.

Hell, Martial characters can potion too if you describe it as... well... alchemy, i.e. protochemistry. Think of Alchemy as it's -own- power source, and divorce it from the old 3E way where Power Source = Role in Party.