Wizards Spectacular Shovel?

Imperialus · Oct 5, 2009

Just wanted to get a sense of how others would rule on this since it's likely going to come up in our next session.

Anyhow... The guy who plays our wizard is an engineer...

This is the theory he came up with.

Mage hand can move 25 lbs of earth each time it is cast.

Since it is a minor action and a combat round is 6 seconds long this means it must take no more than 2 seconds to successfully move 25 lbs of earth up to 25 feet.

Now the number crunching comes in. 25*3 (per round) =75

75*10 (ten rounds per minute) = 750
750*60 (minutes per hour) = 45000 lbs per hour

Convert to short tons = 22.5 US tons per hour.

This means that given a couple of hours he should be able to create a pretty decent trench system/earthwall right?

Nifft · Oct 5, 2009

IMHO mechanically a free Cantrip ought never be able to duplicate the effect of an expensive Ritual.

In this case, I'm thinking of Excavation.

Cheers, -- N

chitzk0i · Oct 5, 2009

Maybe if it was loose earth. And if there's any kind of bushes or undergrowth, no. A hand that can exert five pounds of force...

Well, if you refer to the description of mage hand, you'll find that it specifically allows the hand to manipulate objects. I wouldn't call 20 lbs of earth an object.

keterys · Oct 5, 2009

It would likely have just as much effect as any other weak hand at moving earth. It couldn't handle any clump or piece that was more than 20 lbs (20, not 25, btw) on its own or required exerting force to free. You might also notice you can only do one mage hand at a time - you can sustain it or move it from there, so you could, say, conjure it and have it pick up and move some earth... then as a minor action drop the earth, move action move back to the spot for the next earth, etc... but if you need to wait for the sustain to end it'll actually hang out until end of next turn before disappearing, so it's really more like one hand's worth of actions every 6 seconds at best.

Anyhow if people took pickaxes and shovels to the ground, the wizard could help out with mage hand. Or a shovel. All about the same really. Less stress on the arms, maybe, but perhaps more stress on the noggin. Wouldn't be surprised if it's just as exhausting in that respect.

Course, thunderwave might actually be pretty effective at excavating depending on the DM

DracoSuave · Oct 5, 2009

And it would have to be a single object. A pile of dirt may not qualify as a single object, depending on the DM.

You're better off having the mage hand run a wheel barrow while the wizard does the shovel work into it.

That -would- speed things up.

Now, a Mage Hand, a shovel, and Cloud of Daggers to break tough dirt up in a torrent of spinning blades... -that- is teamwork.

If you had a Skill Challenge involving all that, I'd allow such an enterprising Wizard substitute his Arcana for his Athletics.

cattoy · Oct 5, 2009

20 pounds, as mentioned earlier, not 25.

Also, by text, mage hand can pick up, move or manipulate an object. Is a clod of dirt an object? probably. Is a loose quantity of sand an object? perhaps not.

How much does a wheelbarrow weigh? It may take only 20 pounds of force to move a perfectly balanced object, but if the object itself weighs over 20 pounds, a DM would be perfectly within his rights to rule that the mage hand could not shift it at all.

On the other hand, Prestidigitation is capable of moving 1 pound of material with no limitation on its form or composition, so it is capable of moving loose sand (or even liquid) but has a range of only 2 squares. (but you can have up to three manifestations of prestidigitation simultaneously)

eamon · Oct 5, 2009

DracoSuave said:
And it would have to be a single object. A pile of dirt may not qualify as a single object, depending on the DM.

You're better off having the mage hand run a wheel barrow while the wizard does the shovel work into it.

That -would- speed things up.

And even if you're lenient on the "single object" aspect, I'm pretty sure that I can shovel with one bare hand much much less than I can merely lift - so the computations by the player are wildly optimistic.

It seems to me that mage hand wouldn't be much better than plain old human hands at shoveling.

Now, a Mage Hand, a shovel, and Cloud of Daggers to break tough dirt up in a torrent of spinning blades... -that- is teamwork.

If you had a Skill Challenge involving all that, I'd allow such an enterprising Wizard substitute his Arcana for his Athletics.

Cloud of Daggers - that's just a brilliant idea. Not sure exactly how good that would work, but the image alone... :-D

Eric Finley · Oct 5, 2009

Yeah - apply his math to physical motions instead. With a minor action you can lift up to Str*20 lbs using two hands (presumably wielding a shovel lets you lift at least half that much, of loose objects, the point of the shovel being to let you apply the strength to loose stuff); with a free action you can drop it. So in six seconds a 10-Strength wizard can, in D&D, move 300 pounds of dirt. Given one minute he can shovel a ton and a half.

I mean, really. Casting Mage Hand takes effort. Why bother when you have apprentices - or fighters?

LightPhoenix · Oct 5, 2009

Personally, I wouldn't allow Mage Hand to do anything more than you could do by hand.

Civil Engineering assumes an average soil density of 100 lbs/ft^3. If MH can move 20 lbs, that means you can move 0.2 cubic feet per casting, 0.6 cubic feet per round. So, to dig a hole 5x5x5 ft, or 125 cubic feet, you'd need 208.33 rounds, or 1250 seconds, or roughly 21 minutes.

However, this is also assuming that five pounds of force is sufficient to break ground. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found any concrete data related to this.

The Excavation ritual takes 10 minutes, and does a minimum of 125 cubic feet, and likely much more depending on the Arcana check.