Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

hamishspence said:

*SNIP*

Apatosaurus doesn't really have a larger body than Diplodocus, after all, just a thicker-boned one.

Maybe the two could be split up more by Hit Dice and Strength- rather than Size.

EDIT:
I've had a look at the skeletal drawings- given the relatively short neck (compared to Barosaurus or Supersaurus) and given the closeness in size of Diplodocus carnegii to Diplodocus hallorum- (90 ft, compated to 98 ft) a possible option could be:

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That's not what I'm seeing in the skeletons. For example, look at these skeletal reconstructions of Diplodocus carnegiei and Apatosaurus excelsus and compare the distance between the hip and shoulder or the space between the feet with the lengths of the neck and tail.

The Diplodocus has a neck about twice as long as the body, and a tail four times as long. The Apatosaurus has a neck about 150% as long as the body and a tail about 250%.

The Apatosaurus's body is definitely proportionally bigger. Since I want the "Standard Sauropod" to also represent species that were a bit stockier than Apatosaurus, such as Camarasaurus, I think the current Space/Reach will do.

Although I've changed my mind again about Diplodocids, and think I'll go back to my original plan of having them have bite and tail reach that are each 50% longer than standard, rather than giving them +100% necks and +50% tails. The ratio of neck-to-tail lengths is roughly the same in most of these sauropods.

EDIT: Just made the changes to my Sauropod stats. Better start on the bipedal prosauropods.

hamishspence said:

Bipedal ones (as adults) can probably run from Small (Thecodontosaurus) to Large (Plateosaurus) and the minimum size for a baby specimen is probably Diminuitive (Mussaurus- 6 inches to base of tail, 15 inches long overall)

It is possible Thecodontosaurus had smaller babies- but we probably do not need Fine dinosaurs.

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I'm statting them from Small upwards, since the littler ones are more background fauna than potential combatant. I'm including Huge to represent a really really big specimen of Plateosaurus or Yunnanosaurus, since the latter may have reached 30-40 feet and over 2 tons. Although in the case of Yunnanosaurus youngi I'm not 100% sure it was not quadrupedal (although the sources I've seen seem to be pretty confident the smaller Y. huangi was bipedal, a lot of them say Y. youngi was a quadruped or "semi-quadrupedal".)

Yunnanosaurus

I think it's still unclear whether it is a sauropod or a prosauropod (I've seen cases made for both)- still- it makes a good maximum for the bipedal sauropodomorphs.

I'm guessing that if it's not a round number, Reach (in either direction) rounds down- since 15 ft + 50% is 22.5 ft.

80 ft works out well for the original Diplodocus longus.

A larger specimen- maybe Diplodocus hallorum or the largest specimens of Diplodocus carnegii (or, for that matter, Supersaurus) - works well as 30 ft bite, 20 ft body, 60 ft tail.

And the middle-of-the-range size for Amphicoelias fragillimus coincides well with 45 ft bite, 30 ft body, 90 ft tail.

Long-necked sauropods vary a bit in tail-length- the longest-necked (proportionally) such as (Omeisaurus) might need a tail slap as short as its body, and a bite reach twice as long- say, 30 ft bite, 15 ft body, 15 ft tail. Not sure what the mean tail length should be.

The Standard Sauropod build should work out for most- 60 ft specimens like Cetiosaurus as Huge (fits, given the weight the New Walk Museum gives for it's Rutland Dinosaur is around 10 tons, rather than the 27 Wikipedia gives.

The larger Apatosaurus species fit with an 80 ft Gargantuan standard sauropod.

And some of the longest and largest titanosaurs, may reach 120 ft- Colossal sauropod. Argentinosaurus itself is believed to not be as big as the 120 ft mounted specimen would indicate (the mount was based on a lot of speculation, and revised estimates are more like 80-90 ft long), but there are other giant titanosaurs.

Maybe the different sauropod types should be named generically, "Huge Longtail Sauropod, Gargantuan Longtail sauropod" etc- and the species, could be described in the examples:

"This can be used to represent smaller diplodocids- such as Diplodocus longus" etc.

and for ones with odd proportions- this could be put in a mini-statblock- like "Barosaurus: As Gargantuan Longtail (30 ft bite reach, 20 ft space), but with a 40 ft tail slap"

(since Barosaurus is up to 90 ft long and rather heavier than Diplodocus)

Supersaurus is also tricky, size-wise- possibly increase the bite reach and decrease the tail slap range. 40 ft bite, 20 ft Space, 50 ft tail slap seems to be in the right ballpark- given that its maximum length is listed as 112 ft.

Interestingly, when I looked up size-range variations for Apatosaurus and Diplodocus, the maximum for adult Apatosaurus, and the minimum for adult Diplodocus, were both 82 ft.

Big, bulky, short-necked sauropods

Some sauropods (Barapasaurus, possibly Paralititan) have a big, chunky body, a very high weight, and a relatively short neck and tail.

At 60 ft long and 48 tonnes-odd in weight, Barapasaurus should be 20 ft Bite Reach, 20 ft Tail Slap Reach, 20 ft Space.

The "short neck and tail" group- with all three being the same length- would possibly cover quite a few sauropods, from the early, to the late.

Camerasaurus is listed as only 59 ft long- and has both a short neck, and a (fairly) short tail- yet is fairly heavy at around 18 tonnes.

So, maybe there should be a group of chunky sauropods- ranging from 30 ft Large, to 45 ft Huge, to 60 ft Gargantuan (Barapasaurus) to 90 ft Colossal (Paralititan?)

This might also work for brachiosaurs- tail reach being twice bite reach seems a bit much- especially since many have very long necks and very short tails (Qiaowanlong, Giraffatitan, Sauroposeidon). The high shoulders might restrict the bite reach- but not that much.

Even Brachiosaurus altithorax does not look especially long-tailed- not when tail is compared to body length.

Using the same formula as for Chunky Sauropods, would give:

45 ft long for a Huge brachiosaur-type: Qiaowanlong or Euhelopus,
60 ft for a Gargantuan one- like Giraffatitan,
and 90 ft for a Colossal one (Sauroposeidon).

EDIT: While Wikipedia has since edited the Diplodocus and Amphicoelias entries- I managed to find a reference of mine in another thread, prior to the edit, that gave, for the original Diplodocus carnegii skeleton, a head/neck length of 22 ft, body length of 13 ft, tail length of 50 ft. This equates to 85 ft.

Rounding down, after placing on a 15 ft base, and allowing for the curve of the spine and the wavy tail- the 20 ft Bite, 15 ft Space, 45 ft Tail Huge diplodocid, does seem to work- it is a little short, but not problematically so.

hamishspence said:

So, maybe there should be a group of chunky sauropods- ranging from 30 ft Large, to 45 ft Huge, to 60 ft Gargantuan (Barapasaurus) to 90 ft Colossal (Paralititan?)

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For most of the chunky sauropods I'd just use my standard 'Brontosaur' stats, and Brachiosaurs for the particularly bulky ones.

EDIT: I've added a note to that effect to my sauropod stats.

Brachiosaur-types

For the Brachiosaur basic type, it gave a figure of twice the bite reach, for the tail- same proportions as the basic sauropod- which is the bit I was dubious about (since some have a tail reach (and bite reach) roughly the same length- such as Barapasaurus)

Though the sample one actually has a 20ft tail slap.

Maybe reduce the tail slap range?

it makes a good general sauropod type- from quite low sizes to quite high- since a lot of sauropods, and possibly prosauropods, were in the 45 ft long but Huge Size category- with tails and necks close to the same length.

so- the following major classes:

Basic Sauropod:
Bite reach = Space, Tail reach = 2 x Space

Slender Sauropod:
Bite reach = 1.5 x Space, Tail reach = 3 x Space

Chunky/Tall Sauropod:
Bite reach = Space, Tail reach = Space

All these seem about right.

and maybe with the other two as "templates" that can be layered onto an existing one?

Long necked Sauropod:
As one of the other categories, but Bite Reach = 2 x Space

Short-tailed Sauropod:
As one of the other categories, but Tail Slap Reach = Space

Armoured Sauropod:
As one of the other classes (usually either Basic or Chunky/Tall)

Using this system:
Mamenchisaurus could be a Basic Sauropod with the Long-necked template added,

Supersaurus could be a Slender Sauropod with the Long-necked template added, and:

Sauroposeidon could be a Chunky Sauropod with the Long necked template added.

With all 3 being Gargantuan.

Alternative sizing option

Instead of giving each of the three major types of sauropod (Standard, Slender, Heavy) different Bite and Tail Slap Reach values (since so many break them) why not split the Rech values off, giving them each their own names:

Very Short (0.5 x Reach)
Short(Reach)
Average (1.5 x Reach)
Long (2 x Reach)
Very Long (2.5 x Reach)
Extremely Long (3 x Reach)

(all lengths round down to the nearest 5 ft, to a minimum of 5 ft at Medium Size)

Using this system:
Diplodocus would be a Huge Slender Sauropod with an Average neck and an Extremely Long tail (20 ft + 15 ft + 45 ft = 80 ft)

Nigersaurus would be a Large Standard Sauropod with a Very Short neck and an Average tail (5 ft + 10 ft + 15 ft = 30 ft)

Does this simplify the Size arguments somewhat?

hamishspence said:

3.5 statblocks do (sometimes) allow for Colossal creatures with a Space larger than 30 ft.

the 3.5 revision to Epic Handbook, gives the devastation vermin, and the biggest Abomination, a 50 ft space.

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In Draconomicon, it covers only shortly the idea of 'Colossal+' which I have only ever seen in that book. I will have to post what I know about it later when my things aren't being packed and moved around (*sniffles* I hate not being able to look at my books).

hamishspence said:

It is sort of funny- that we've just been statting out spiked, armoured- and club-tailed thyreophorans-

and it turns out- that there are spiked, armoured, and club-tailed sauropods.

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Some of the armored sauropoda are in my list for creatures I need specifically for my campaign setting. Cleon, you did at one time ask me if there was a list I did not post here... Here for dinos and here for prims. Both of those and more content is featured on the Elftown wikipage for Nym (setting).

Cleon said:

As far as my stats are concerned whiptails are a standard feature of most of the sauropods.

I thought about including spine-backed sauropods but most sauropod spines were fairly small they'd probably not do much as far as the animal's D&D stat go, so I decided to consider them to be for display or species recognition of a a standard generic Sauropod, or just part of the armour of an Armoured sauropod to cover the most exaggeratedly spiny genera like Augustina.

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I agree with that choice - if they are not big enough to make a difference in attack, and don't add to AC it's not worth adding - but natural AC is a good idea.

I was also thinking about reach and our long-necked friends... And even though MMI outlines certain guidelines for creating a standard creature of a standard shape and size, these critters (esp. dinos) are in many ways completely unique to D&D stats for other creatures like ogres and tarrasques - for the simple fact that they have very unique and extended physiology that I think begs for changed stats with certain attacks (such as bite or tailwhip attacks for sauropoda, for example - because of incredibly long necks and tails exceeding typical stats for a creature of that build. In other words, I think some things could be tweaked because of specific physiology which warrants it.

I dunno - in any case, you both are blowing me out the water here. I feel impotent.

Minmi makes me smile to think about it.... I would adore having a little ankylosaur of that size of smaller. I bet they would be like a cow..... but I want one to play fetch with....

Colossal+

Epic Handbook invented it, Draconomicon expanded on it.

Oddly, the Devastation Vermin (and the Aspect of the Leviathan in Elder Evils) were only described as Colossal- despite their having a bigger Space.

From what I can tell, Colossal+ dragons only get expanded Reach, not Space (they are still listed as 30 ft Space in Draconomicon). which is strange.

Especially given that the miniature for the Colossal Red Dragon, appears to have a base twice as wide as those of the Gargantuan dragons- putting it at 40 ft Space.

I did some tests with my proposed Reach categories and they work quite well for distinguishing otherwise similar diplodocids:

Barosaurus: Huge, Long Neck, Very Long Tail- works out to:
30 ft neck, 15 ft body, 35 ft tail

Diplodocus: Huge, Average Neck, Extremely Long Tail:
20 ft neck, 15 ft body, 45 ft tail

Mamenchisaurus: Huge, Very Long Neck, Long Tail:
35 ft neck, 15 ft body, 30 ft tail

Apatosaurus (young)
Huge, Short Neck, Long Tail:
15 ft neck, 15 ft body, 30 ft tail

and you can, roughly, represent the Gargantuan ones too:

Supersaurus: Gargantuan, Long Neck, Very Long Tail:
40 ft neck, 20 ft body, 50 ft tail

Diplodocus hallorum: Gargantuan, Average Neck, Extremely Long Tail:
30 ft neck, 20 ft body, 60 ft tail

Mamenchisaurus: Gargantuan, Very Long Neck, Long Tail:
50 ft neck, 20 ft body, 40 ft tail

Apatosaurus (adult)
Gargantuan, Short Neck, Long Tail:
20 ft neck, 20 ft body, 40 ft tail

xidoraven said:

Some of the armored sauropoda are in my list for creatures I need specifically for my campaign setting. Cleon, you did at one time ask me if there was a list I did not post here... Here for dinos and here for prims. Both of those and more content is featured on the Elftown wikipage for Nym (setting).

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Okay, I'll have a look at your dinosaur list...

...Hmm, the Megaraptor stats I posted back on page 1 of this thread will do for Baryonyx in a pinch, and I think I've pretty well covered most of the Sauropods and Thyreophoran armoured dinosaurs.

I've already got takes on Coelophysis, Dilophosaurus, Spinosaurus and Ornithomimosaurs practically finished, so I can hopefully post those in a day or three.

EDIT: Hold on, I'd already posted my Ornithomimid stats when I unveiled my take on Deinocheirus.:EDIT

That would seem to leave Scythe-Lizard (e.g. Segnosaurus), Horn-Face (Ceratopsians & Protoceratopsians) and Bird-Foot (Iguanodons & Hadrosaurs) dinosaurs as the main standouts on your "want lists". I started roughing out some Therizinosaurs a few weeks ago but got distracted by work, so those would (most likely) be the first type I'd do, followed by the Horned Dinosaurs, although I'll release the lighweight theropods I mentioned in the previous paragraph first.

It would also be pretty easy to scale down my Deinonychus and Utahraptor stats to create the smaller Dromaeosaurs such as Velociraptor (Small), Bambiraptor (Tiny), but I think I'd want to do a more elaborate write-up like I did for the Sauropods and Thyreophorans so I can include the various other Maniraptors: the Diminutive Epidexipteryx; the more lightly armed Troodontidae; the winged and half-winged (Sinornithosaurus, Rahonavis, Archaeopterytx et cetera) and the short-armed Unenlagiinae.

xidoraven said:

Cleon said:

As far as my stats are concerned whiptails are a standard feature of most of the sauropods.

I thought about including spine-backed sauropods but most sauropod spines were fairly small they'd probably not do much as far as the animal's D&D stat go, so I decided to consider them to be for display or species recognition of a a standard generic Sauropod, or just part of the armour of an Armoured sauropod to cover the most exaggeratedly spiny genera like Augustina.

Click to expand...

I agree with that choice - if they are not big enough to make a difference in attack, and don't add to AC it's not worth adding - but natural AC is a good idea.

Click to expand...

Ugh! I must have written that in a hurry, judging by the typos. I'll have to edit it for grammar, so I do not have to face the shame of it.

xidoraven said:

I was also thinking about reach and our long-necked friends... And even though MMI outlines certain guidelines for creating a standard creature of a standard shape and size, these critters (esp. dinos) are in many ways completely unique to D&D stats for other creatures like ogres and tarrasques - for the simple fact that they have very unique and extended physiology that I think begs for changed stats with certain attacks (such as bite or tailwhip attacks for sauropoda, for example - because of incredibly long necks and tails exceeding typical stats for a creature of that build. In other words, I think some things could be tweaked because of specific physiology which warrants it.

Click to expand...

Yes, I think having a maximum reach of triple space is a reasonable upper limit. If I remember correctly, there are 3E stats for an awl pike which give it triple reach, and I think of a Diplodocus's tail as having a similar extravagant extent.

xidoraven said:

Minmi makes me smile to think about it.... I would adore having a little ankylosaur of that size of smaller. I bet they would be like a cow..... but I want one to play fetch with....

Click to expand...

I'd think a Bambiraptor would make a cuter pet, and be more likely to enjoy fetch.