Pact Dagger

elecgraystone · Oct 15, 2009

I just got a pact dagger and I have a question I'd like to ask. It has an effect that any creature I've cursed takes damage if they attack me in melee. My question is this. Does the damage happen before or after the creatures finishes it's attack? Is it an interrupt or a reaction?

If there is no clear ruling on this, I'll change this thread into a proposal that we make a ruling. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but I'd like to know ahead of time how it works.

JoeNotCharles · Oct 15, 2009

I would say it happens afterward. The way it's worded, "When a creature... makes a melee attack against you, deal damage to the creature..." makes it sounds like the attack comes first and then triggers the effect. I think if it was supposed to be an interrupt they'd have been more clear since that's a less common and more powerful effect.

In other words, I think it should be worded, "After a creature... makes a melee attack against you, as a free action you may deal damage to the creature..."

This is just my opinion, though, it does seem ambiguous as stated.

Mal Malenkirk · Oct 15, 2009

Well, I assume it applies after the attack the is resolved. There really isn't any fine prints to help us here, though.

The distinction is rather important for the minions, eh?

covaithe · Oct 15, 2009

Another vote for afterward.

elecgraystone · Oct 15, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
I would say it happens afterward. The way it's worded, "When a creature... makes a melee attack against you, deal damage to the creature..." makes it sounds like the attack comes first and then triggers the effect.

The reason I ask is that immediate interupts have the same kind of wording.
'When a creature makes a melee attack against you' falls between the wording of these interrupts. 'An enemy targets you with an attack' [Leaping Dodge, rogue 16 ulility] and 'When an attack hits you' [Second Chance, halfling racial]. Leaping dodge works before you even roll the dice and second chance works only after a hit. Quite a range. :hmm:

Taking that into account I couldn't really look at the wording and say it was or wasn't an interrupt.

EDIT: I found this = Disruptive Strike [ranger 3rd] 'You or an ally is attacked by a creature'. I knew I'd find an interrupt with the same kind of wording if I looked through enough books! I just had to look through the interrupt attacks.

Yes, the wording bites Mal Malenkirk and you are right on the money about minions. I saw a minion in our encounter and started wondering how it worked.

Sigh... I was hoping that this had come up somewhere before, like WOTC forums, and I'd just missed it. Oh well. I'm happy to go with the majority on this. It's only going to alter my tactics with minions I've cursed.

JoeNotCharles · Oct 16, 2009

Yeah, what I meant by, "if it was supposed to be an interrupt they'd have been more clear," is that usually when it's an interrupt either it's a power so you can see in the header, or it says, "as an immediate interrupt" in the sentence. There's all kinds of different trigger words they use otherwise.

elecgraystone · Oct 16, 2009

For some reason they got lax and didn't explain. It just irks me that there isn't any way to be sure from the text.

Oh well, seems like the GM's that commented say reaction so that's how I'll treat it. If anyone sees an answer from WOTC on this in the future, let me know. It'll bug me until I know 100% sure what the right answer is.

Lord Sessadore · Oct 16, 2009

If you think about it, it would be a lot less powerful as an immediate action of either kind.

Currently, the damage applies anytime a cursed enemy attacks you - you can apply it multiple times per round, and even on your turn if you provoke an OA, and still do an immediate action in the same round. If it were an immediate action, you could get that damage at most 1/round, and not during your turn.

Also, I lean towards the damage happening after the triggering attack.

elecgraystone · Oct 17, 2009

LOL It would be nice if they listed the action needed for it [non, free, ect].

As far as 'lot less powerful as an immediate action', I don't know about that. An immediate interrupt would kill of a minion, activate your pact and there is no damage to you. Weigh that against taking the attack first and maybe taking damage. Even multiple hits doesn't add up to many hp damage on a non-minion. The immediate action isn't sounding too bad to me compared to doing damage after the attack.

Now if you can curse multiple people at a time and max out your AC [or have something to mitigate damage], you could kill a lot of minions at once with OA's. So at higher levels it might be more powerful as is vs an immediate interrupt, but at heroic? I'm not so sure.

Lord Sessadore · Oct 17, 2009

I suppose you could argue it either way. If it were me I think I'd prefer it to not be an immediate action, especially if I had more than one enemy cursed. But that's a personal preference thing, I guess