Converting Oriental Adventures creatures

freyar said:

OK, I can go with those revised attack lines. Combat Reflexes seems as good a feat as any. Maybe also Weapon Finesse (if we're not going to make that a bonus feat).

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Weapon Finesse would be an obvious boost, yes, but we were aiming to keep the attack bonus relatively low, since the original had THAC0 19/20.

freyar said:

+3d6 sneak attack, I think, like a 6th level rogue. Since we're possibly thinking about character class advancement, we should also consider making it stackable (like goatfolk).

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I proposed +2d6 since that's the sneak attack of a 3rd level rogue. The OA2 Ninja Shadow Spirit is a multiclassed 3rd level ninja/3rd level yakuza.

freyar said:

Well, the standard thing to do would be to give it uncanny dodge to go with evasion. Of course, we could give it defensive roll instead to be a bit unusual. I'm not quite sure if giving it both is too much. Your thoughts?

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I don't mind giving it uncanny dodge, but wouldn't bother with defensive roll.

freyar said:

I see about turning immunity now; it wasn't listed at all in the stats we have posted.

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Maybe it was hiding in the shadows? I can't tell, because I'm wearing my dark glasses.

freyar said:

Hmm. Let's due fast healing 2.
Fast Healing (Ex): A ninja spirit shadow heals only in areas of shadow.

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That'd be OK by me.

+2d6 sneak attack is fine, but Weapon Finesse is too obvious. I'd prefer the boost to the attack bonus; after all, the hp are considerably higher than the original monster.

Well, how about we wait on the feats and see what the updated working draft looks like before deciding?

freyar said:

+2d6 sneak attack is fine, but Weapon Finesse is too obvious. I'd prefer the boost to the attack bonus; after all, the hp are considerably higher than the original monster.

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Eh? When you say "Weapon Finesse is too obvious" does that mean you're now against Weapon Finesse or still in favour of it?

freyar said:

Well, how about we wait on the feats and see what the updated working draft looks like before deciding?

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Might as well.

Updating the Ninja Spirit Shadow Working Draft.

I wrapped the unarmed strike and flurry of blows together into a "Martial Artistry" special ability based on the one we came up with for the Sea Bonze.

I toyed with the idea of adding a monklike AC bonus and ki strike ability, but 3rd level monks don't have them. I suppose we could give it the bonuses of a 6th level monk, or have get a 3-level "credit" that only gives if an actual AC bonus or ki strike if it acquires some appropriate class levels.

Hmm, I'm not sure I like the "ki strike" though, mainly because monks get ki strike (lawful). It'd be simpler to just say a ninja spirit shadow's attacks are considered magical, it being a spirit being and all.

Something like this... I'm happy with the current unarmed strike & flurry Martial Artistry, though. The +1 AC bonus doesn't seem worth the extra fiddliness. I suppose we could just give it the ability on credit...
Hmm, I quite like that...

I mean that it would seem completely silly if it doesn't get Weapon Finesse. If there's ever a monster that thematically called for Weapon Finesse, this is it.

I like Take 2 there quite a bit, also. Let's add that AC bonus in.

Ready for skills and feats?

freyar said:

I mean that it would seem completely silly if it doesn't get Weapon Finesse. If there's ever a monster that thematically called for Weapon Finesse, this is it.

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Oh very well, I'll let you have Weapon Finesse you munchkin you.

freyar said:

I like Take 2 there quite a bit, also. Let's add that AC bonus in.

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I can go along with that too.

Does that include the "a ninja spirit shadow's attacks are considered magical" idea? I'll put that in provisionally.

Updating the Ninja Spirit Shadow Working Draft.

freyar said:

Ready for skills and feats?

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Well, is there anything else we want to borrow from the Ninja class (Complete Adventurer) or Ninja Spy class (Oriental Adventures)?

A 3rd level Complete Adventurer ninja has ki power, ghost step, trapfinding, sudden strike, poison use.

It only has one ki power, which is Ghost Step (Su) - 1/day invisibility as a swift action.

Sudden Strike (Ex) is that ninja classes' version of sneak attack. It doesn't work against flanked opponents, only against flat-footed ones, but can be applied to ranged attacks.

Ironically, the spirit shadow wouldn't qualify for the Ninja Spy prestige class, since it can't get enough ranks in Bluff. A 3rd level Ninja Spy has two exotic weapon proficiencies, slow fall (20 ft.), ki breath, poison use, improved evasion, sneak attack, acrobatics (+10 competence bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks), and leap of the clouds.

Ki Breath (Ex) is a bonus on rolls to hold breath - irrelevant as undead ninja don't breath!

Leap of the Clouds (Ex) means a ninja spy's jumping distance is not limited by their height. Which suggests the author misread the Jump rules, 'cause there's no such limit in the SRD.

Hmm, I think we might as well keep the Sneak Attack rather than give them Sudden Strike, especially as the current version doesn't have any ranged weapons! Poison use is irrelevant, since if the ninja shadow accidentally poisons itself it won't take any damage being Undead and all.

However, I wouldn't mind adding the acrobatics and slow fall abilities.

A +10 bonus might be a bit high, though. The Ninja Class also has acrobatics, but it kicks in at 6th level with a +2 bonus (untyped) on Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks.

How about going halfway with Slow Fall (20 ft.) together with a +5 competence bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks? We needn't give it an "Acrobatics" SQ, but I think it'd be a nice nod.

We can also add slow fall to the "Martial Mastery" ability, so it stacks with the slow fall from class levels (e.g. it gains Slow Fall 30 ft. if it becomes a 3rd level monk).

Sneak Attack works on ranged attacks to 30 ft anyway.

The skill bonus you suggest is good, but I'm not quite convinced about slow fall. Thinking about it.

I don't like attacks being considered magical. For a monk, that only happens at 4th level, not 3rd, and it's a separate ability from unarmed strike. They can get it if they take monk levels.

freyar said:

Sneak Attack works on ranged attacks to 30 ft anyway.

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Gaah yes, for some reason I thought the Ninja version had a better range.

freyar said:

The skill bonus you suggest is good, but I'm not quite convinced about slow fall. Thinking about it.

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So shall I add "Acrobatics: a ninja spirit shadow has a +5 competence bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks"?

I'm not so bothered about the Slow Fall, but would it really hurt?

freyar said:

I don't like attacks being considered magical. For a monk, that only happens at 4th level, not 3rd, and it's a separate ability from unarmed strike. They can get it if they take monk levels.

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Well I do like the attacks being considered magical. Not because it's a monk power, but because this ninja is a supernatural shadow-spirit. I didn't fancy having its "ki strike" stack with monk levels, because monks get the ability to make their fists lawful weapons, which seems wrong for a ninja.

I don't see the need to make an SQ just for racial skill bonuses. Or is the point that you want them to be competence bonuses? You could still just put that in the skill line.

Slow Fall doesn't really hurt, but I worry we're loading this up with too many abilities for its HD. Well, what the heck, let's put it in.

The attacks of wraiths and spectres (similar HD supernatural spirits) aren't considered magical. I just don't see the precedent. However, I could support letting the shadow form have an incorporeal touch attack that does unarmed strike damage.

freyar said:

I don't see the need to make an SQ just for racial skill bonuses. Or is the point that you want them to be competence bonuses? You could still just put that in the skill line.

Slow Fall doesn't really hurt, but I worry we're loading this up with too many abilities for its HD. Well, what the heck, let's put it in.

The attacks of wraiths and spectres (similar HD supernatural spirits) aren't considered magical. I just don't see the precedent. However, I could support letting the shadow form have an incorporeal touch attack that does unarmed strike damage.

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Well I guess I'm OK with just Acrobatics and Slow Fall.

*Sniff sniff* It'll have magic strike in my game whether that meanie Freyar likes it or not. *Sniff sniff*



I'd like to make Acrobatics a SQ as a shout-out to the class(es) that inspired it. We could even make it untyped like the Ninja class's Acrobatics, although that might be going a bit far...

Updating the Ninja Spirit Shadow Working Draft.

Poor Cleon.

What did you think about an incorporeal touch in shadow form? I'm not bothered much either way.