Converting Oriental Adventures creatures
Cleon
Legend
I think it's a lot simpler just having damage to a banner affect the linked body's hit points, which effectively means that the body's hps are the banner's hps.
You appear to be suggesting we give the banners separate hit points, which mean that the DM would have to keep track of fourteen sets of hps (seven banners plus seven bodies) instead of just the seven bodies' hps.
Also, while we do need to give the banner an AC, I think it should be significantly lower than the actual Veiled Maidens' AC of 18, not two points higher. The banners don't have Dexterity 18 for a start.
Similarly, I don't agree with giving the banner hardness - they're supposed to be a weakness, and giving them hardness plus a higher AC would make them tougher than the actual Veiled Maiden!
As to a Break DC I have no objection in principle, but if we do go for it I'd like the Break DC to be rather high.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
I would just spell out the hp a bit more explicitly. As for AC, it's hard for me to see why the veil's AC should be so much better, but I could go with something like AC 14 (including the same deflection modifier as the Maidens). I'm ok with dropping hardness. Break DC of 20 or so?
Special Weakness - Banners (Ex): Each of the seven swords have a different special weakness. The Veiled Maidens' is that its existence is tied to seven identical "banners" made from the same azure silk as its clothing and veils. The banners typically take the form of a flag or wall-hanging about 5 feet square.
Each Veiled Maidens body is linked to a "banner". Any damage done to a banner is also inflicted upon the body the banner is tied to; the banner and body always have the same number of hit points. A banner has AC XX and can be destroyed by ripping with a Break DC of YY.
Special Weakness - Banners (Ex): Each of the seven swords have a different special weakness. The Veiled Maidens' is that its existence is tied to seven identical "banners" made from the same azure silk as its clothing and veils. The banners typically take the form of a flag or wall-hanging about 5 feet square.
Each Veiled Maidens body is linked to a "banner". Any damage done to a banner is also inflicted upon the body the banner is tied to; the banner and body always have the same number of hit points. A banner has AC XX and can be destroyed by ripping with a Break DC of YY.
Cleon
Legend
That basic approach looks fine to me.
The banners ought to have a worse Armor Class than the veils, since they don't benefit from the Maidens' Steel Cloth ability. They also have a –5 Dexterity adjustment for not having any Dexterity, but I'm not sure whether that's included in the Veils AC too.
Maybe make them AC 16, or the veil's AC 20 without the +4 deflection bonus?
Also, I'm still thinking we ought to have Vulnerability to Fire.
Any ideas for the Break DC?
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
AC 16 seems ok. I'm also ok with vulnerability to fire. I did mention a Break DC of 20; is that ok with you? Also, should we spell out that a body is destroyed if the banner is?
Possible edit:
Special Weakness - Banners (Ex): Each of the seven swords have a different special weakness. The Veiled Maidens' is that its existence is tied to seven identical "banners" made from the same azure silk as its clothing and veils. The banners typically take the form of a flag or wall-hanging about 5 feet square.
Each Veiled Maidens body is linked to a "banner". Any damage done to a banner is also inflicted upon the body the banner is tied to; the banner and body always have the same number of hit points, and the body is destroyed whenever the banner is. A banner has AC 16 and can be destroyed by ripping with a Break DC of 20. Banners take double damage from fire.
Possible edit:
Special Weakness - Banners (Ex): Each of the seven swords have a different special weakness. The Veiled Maidens' is that its existence is tied to seven identical "banners" made from the same azure silk as its clothing and veils. The banners typically take the form of a flag or wall-hanging about 5 feet square.
Each Veiled Maidens body is linked to a "banner". Any damage done to a banner is also inflicted upon the body the banner is tied to; the banner and body always have the same number of hit points, and the body is destroyed whenever the banner is. A banner has AC 16 and can be destroyed by ripping with a Break DC of 20. Banners take double damage from fire.
Cleon
Legend
Come to think of it, should the linkage be two-ways, so the banner is destroyed if its associated body is destroyed, not just vice-versa as in the current draft?
Also, my earlier proposal was for normal vulnerability to fire (e.g. +50% damage), not double damage. You appear to favour making the vulnerability higher than standard.
Any particular reason for it?
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
No, there wasn't a particular reason, +50% damage is fine. I think having the hp linked presumably destroys the banner if the body is destroyed, but we can also make that explicit.
Special Weakness - Banners (Ex): Each of the seven swords have a different special weakness. The Veiled Maidens' is that its existence is tied to seven identical "banners" made from the same azure silk as its clothing and veils. The banners typically take the form of a flag or wall-hanging about 5 feet square.
Each Veiled Maidens body is linked to a "banner". Any damage done to a banner is also inflicted upon the body the banner is tied to; the banner and body always have the same number of hit points, and the body is destroyed whenever the banner is (and vice versa). A banner has AC 16 and can be destroyed by ripping with a Break DC of 20. Banners take 50% extra damage from fire.
Special Weakness - Banners (Ex): Each of the seven swords have a different special weakness. The Veiled Maidens' is that its existence is tied to seven identical "banners" made from the same azure silk as its clothing and veils. The banners typically take the form of a flag or wall-hanging about 5 feet square.
Each Veiled Maidens body is linked to a "banner". Any damage done to a banner is also inflicted upon the body the banner is tied to; the banner and body always have the same number of hit points, and the body is destroyed whenever the banner is (and vice versa). A banner has AC 16 and can be destroyed by ripping with a Break DC of 20. Banners take 50% extra damage from fire.
Cleon
Legend
The mechanics are fine, but I'd like to tweak the phrasing a little:
Special Weakness - Banners (Ex): Each of the seven swords have a different special weakness. The Veiled Maidens' is that its existence is tied to seven identical "banners" made from the same azure silk as its clothing and veils. These banners typically take the form of flag or wall-hangings about 5 feet square.
Each Veiled Maidens body is linked to a separate banner. Any damage done to a banner is also inflicted upon the body that banner is tied to; the banner and body always have the same number of hit points, and the body is destroyed whenever its banner is (and vice versa). The banners have AC 16 and vulnerability to fire (+50% damage). They can also be ripped apart with a Strength check - the Break DC is 20.
Cleon
Legend
Updating the Veiled Maidens Working Draft.
The only mechanical point we have left is the red question placeholder "the Veiled Maidens unarmed strikes and veil attacks count as X for the purpose of penetrating damage reduction. ???" which I think should have X = magic, since a 4th level monk has ki strike (magic).
Maybe we should just add ki strike to its martial artistry?
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