3.5E Nehaschimic Dragons

Yeah, I can see why the breath weapon was giving you trouble...and in all honesty, it still seems to be rather troublesome. As it is right now, the this breath weapon...

1) Uses the Transcendental [Effect] transcendental ability (d100/Hit Die divine damage).

2) Uses the Doombringer cosmic ability (re-experience the most damage you ever took).

3) Shrink several size categories.

4) Uses a combined Cursed Body/Cursed Mind/Cursed Soul cosmic ability (since they take a luck penalty - to what isn't specified).

5) Uses a combined Karmic [Effect]/Siphoning [Effect] cosmic ability (losing both experience points and quintessence).

...with a successful save negating #2 and #4, and halving #1, #3, and #5.

So yeah, that's quite a mish-mash of abilities there. Unfortunately, I'm not at all sure how these effects keep to the theme of the dragon, and worry that this many effects is lopsided, even for a nehaschimic dragon (as well as being a bit of a chore to juggle...though that goes without saying at epic levels).

The luck penalty is just Vexing [Effect]. Read it and you'll see. It hits everything.

But yes, there was no existing individual effect which fit this monster, so I knew I'd be making a new one like I did for the Firmament Dragon. And of the "copy" abilities that could be used offensively, the only one I could really see being useful for this was Doombringer (of course, you were correct about that).

Really, if constructed as an actual effect ability, the way I did Alpha [Effect] for the Firmament, it'd properly use d20s instead of d100s, since that's Cosmic [Effect]- but given that Adamic Dragons are allowed to use Transcendental for their breath weapons, that looked really weak to me.

The intended theme of the breath weapon- if I made it a single effect ability like Alpha or Atomic- is "Diminishing." Every one of the sub-effects diminishes the target in some way, it's just that together they diminish it in several ways simultaneously rather than concentrating on one way like hit points.

The shrinking idea was actually what I started with, since no existing effect does that (even in the core rules) and I thought it fit this dragon nicely given that it's supposed to be from a micro-universe. The text doesn't really spell this out, just hints at it instead, but an idea I was keeping in mind the entire time I was making this is that universes can be connected to each other such that an entire "microcosm" can exist within a single atom or particle in a "macrocosm" universe. The dragon's supposed to be coming out of such a microcosm to enter the macrocosm, so an incredible size change is already part of its makeup. Therefore, maybe it would have the ability to "pull down" inhabitants of the macrocosm towards its own original level, possibly even to fuel its own explosive growth in the first place. The number of size categories shifted by the effect was something I arrived at by comparison with Poison [Effect] among others, since a primary game effect of such a size change would be loss of STR and CON.

New Breath Weapon

Tonight at work I had a brainstorm and finally came up with an effect that I think works for the Mirrorwarp Dragon's breath weapon, beyond the one I originally had (the "Diminishing Effect" that was a mishmash of Karmic, Vexing, Siphoning, shrinking, and Doombringer). The new one is more complicated to explain, but paradoxically I think would be easier to actually use in play once you "get" the concept of it. It basically turns the opponent's power against it, much like most of the dragon's other abilities. See what you think!

I'll also be turning that effect into a new [Effect] ability in the Custom Abilities thread, but probably tomorrow rather than tonight since I'm rather tired now.

Hiya mate!

Sounds interesting. I have been wracking my brains to come up with some new energy types for 4E. I don't like ones that are simply a different damage type unless they have some sort of accompanying side effect.

The obvious example being Void energy damage being permanent until a Ritual is performed.

So what other types could exist?

Temporal Damage? Like ongoing damage but is rolled every round rather than being a fixed amount. (So an ability might say, "Temporal Winds: Close Blast 5, +10 vs. Reflex, 3d6+3 temporal damage [save ends]".)

Immolation Damage (or Destruction Damage): always hits the target's vulnerabilities? (So if the target is vulnerable "fire 10" to anything it is automatically vulnerable 10 to Immolation Damage.)

What do you think?

It's a bit off the topic of 3.5E Nehaschimic Dragons, and I know next to nothing about 4E after the first trio of core books (PHB1 and its mates), but I'll bite.

I've mentioned in several other threads the fact that my game features seven "Advanced Energy" types that are considered equivalent (in "level cost") to Force Damage; in fact Force is one of the seven types. Here, I will list all seven types with explanations of what they are and do. Perhaps it will be useful to your 4E endeavors somehow.

• Force: Listing this one first, out of alphabetical order, just because this is the one everybody knows already. Its special effect is that it hits Ethereal and Incorporeal targets just as easily as regular ones.
• Disruption: This is defined as "the type of damage the Disintegration spell does." The fact that it works a lot like the phasers on Star Trek, when set to kill, helps sell this concept as an energy type. This energy invariably appears a sickly green color, and if a target is reduced to 0 hit points (or less) by it, then grab a dustpan- there won't be a body.
• Electromagnetic: This is in my game largely because I bring in lots of sci-fi tropes to mix with the fantasy- think post-apocalyptic Dragonstar with much higher tech before the crash. Robots are a subtype of Construct in my game, and characters can acquire items of ancient technology that still work if you can find ways to power them. I mention these two things because they are what EM damage interacts with. Its first special effect is that non-Construct creatures are assumed to be immune to it unless otherwise specified; Constructs not specifically made using technological components are likewise usually immune. EM damage that hits immune critters deals half damage to them, and the damage is nonlethal. It can hit robots just fine, though- which is convenient if you're a spellcaster whose Fighter friends just can't seem to stop charging into those crowds of old metal machines. The second EM special effect, arguably more useful in many games, is that it can provide tech devices with power- all such devices are assumed to use standardized Power Cells and carry "Charge Units" which work essentially like psionic power points do in some psionic items. EM "damage" applied to such an item just recharges it with a number of CUs equal to the "damage" dealt, instead of actually harming it.
• Gelid: This energy type is defined in the most basic sense as "Cold so cold that even Ice Elementals fear it." A more precise definition is, cold so intense that it actually creates new states of matter such as liquid helium, metallic hydrogen, superfluids, Bose-Einstein condensates, and so on. In other words, really really close to Absolute Zero (and yes, there is a 9th-level attack spell called Absolute Zero which is related to this damage type). Its special effect is that creatures which are Immune to Cold still take half damage from this- or one-quarter on a successful save against, say, a Gelidball- and also that any target reduced to 0 hit points is flash-frozen and effectively dead (though this state is also similar to petrification). Cold Resistance is utterly useless against Gelid damage, no matter how large it is. Gelid damage also counts as Frostburn damage, if you're using that book.
• Particle: This is defined as "damage dealt by antimatter or other exotic particles." It works by converting part of its target to energy, which tends to have detrimental effects if the converted portion happens to include, say, the target's spleen. Its special effect is that if a target takes more Particle damage in a single round than twice its CON score, it is treated as being exposed to dangerous radiation (note: this is a different game effect than the Radiation energy type, which I explain below. Yes, this occasionally gets confusing, but consider how many different ways the D&D game uses the word "level" before complaining). Under typical IH rules, given the existence of the Kiloton spell, I'd suggest just treating this as ability damage hitting the physical scores; my own Radiation rules incorporated "crazy mutation effects" lovingly borrowed from Gamma World and are too complex to explain here.
• Plasma: Gelid's opposite number, this is the energy type defined as "Fire so hot that even Fire Elementals fear it." This isn't volcano-hot, it's center-of-the-sun hot. Accretion-disk-of-a-black-hole hot. Hot enough to go far beyond violet and make X-Rays and Gamma Rays. Plasma damage deals half damage to creatures with Immunity to Fire (or one quarter on a successful save, where appropriate), but bypasses Fire Resistance like it isn't even there. There is no listed special effect for reducing a target to 0 hit points with Plasma, but given typical nuke effects, one could safely add in vaporization I suppose if one wanted to extend the rules a teensy bit.
• Radiation: This is the damage a laser does, and/or high-energy photons like X-Rays and Gammas. Immunity to Electricity will let a creature take half damage from Radiation, or one quarter on a successful save yadda yadda, but Electricity Resistance is useless. It isn't part of the standard rules for Radiation damage to ding a target with the "exposure to dangerous radiation" status ailment like Particle damage does, but most items and spells that deal Radiation damage also include the possibility of inflicting that status ailment too. I decided to do that because it's quite possible for lasers, even while vaporizing tissues, to leave other tissues right next door to them completely untouched- which means, no radiation sickness from a laser hit.

So, there they are- the seven Advanced Energy types. Use 'em (or not) at your discretion.

Hi paradox42 amigo!

Thanks for taking the time to go into such detail.

A few comments:

1. Force is already in 4E its one of the second tier (two tiers of 5 energies) sources.

Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Thunder
Force, Necrotic, Poison, Psychic, Radiant

I'd like to have another two tiers (of 5 each) after that.

Probably...

Divine (Odylic), Ley Line (Telluric), Radiation (Atomic), Void (Obyric), Warp (Ectenic)

...for the first 5.

With probably a few 'Anti' [insert dimension] sources or something like that for the next 5.

2. Disruption, interesting. Have to think about it.

3. Electromagnetic I wonder if it would be of any real use outside a sci-fi campaign?

4 & 6. Gelid & Plasma I have contemplated, but I sort of don't want to have energy sources that are simply the same only better. I think you could have individual abilities that do things like this using cold and fire damage. For instance the Red Dragon in 4E can 'burn' fire resistance away. Stuff like that.

5. Particle, I am working on an Anti-Matter energy type, but haven't nailed the details as yet.

7. Radiation, I have this already, although it works a lot differently to your idea.

Upper_Krust said:

I'd like to have another two tiers (of 5 each) after that.

Probably...

Divine (Odylic), Ley Line (Telluric), Radiation (Atomic), Void (Obyric), Warp (Ectenic)

Click to expand...

Where do the terms Odylic and Obyric come from? I recognize the other three...

With probably a few 'Anti' [insert dimension] sources or something like that for the next 5.

Click to expand...

Maybe ... Anti-Entropy (Empyrean = somewhat analogous to Radiant), Anti-Matter (Annihilation = somewhat analogous to Force [annihilation to pure energy etc.]), Anti-Time (Withering = somewhat analogous to Necrotic), Anti-Spirit (Soulburning = somewhat analogous to Poison), Anti-Thought (Madness = somewhat analogous to Psychic)?



Also possibly a damage type which especially (or only) effective against incorporeal creatures. I have some ideas for a dragon that works that way...


Would it make sense in 4e to have a dragon which has much bigger gaps between age categories? Starting at low Heroic Tier and going up to Sidereal or Eternal level...

Hiya mate!

Khisanth the Ancient said:

Where do the terms Odylic and Obyric come from? I recognize the other three...

Click to expand...

Occult references to positive and negative forces, Od and Ob.

Maybe ... Anti-Entropy (Empyrean = somewhat analogous to Radiant), Anti-Matter (Annihilation = somewhat analogous to Force [annihilation to pure energy etc.]), Anti-Time (Withering = somewhat analogous to Necrotic), Anti-Spirit (Soulburning = somewhat analogous to Poison), Anti-Thought (Madness = somewhat analogous to Psychic)?

Click to expand...

I'm sure I'll (we'll) think of something. I'll be concentrating on the Legendary Tier (and a little above) for now, so we won't have to work these out just yet. The naming bit is the easy part, its the coming up with a whole new 'schtick' thats the tricky bit.

Also possibly a damage type which especially (or only) effective against incorporeal creatures. I have some ideas for a dragon that works that way...

Click to expand...

I think I would maybe lump this in with Gelid and Plasma in that its better suited as a power rather than an energy type.

Also, Incorporeal in 4E just means half damage, so to overcome it you just need to deal double damage.

Would it make sense in 4e to have a dragon which has much bigger gaps between age categories? Starting at low Heroic Tier and going up to Sidereal or Eternal level...

Click to expand...

I don't see why? I think the 7-level gap seems about right to me. You don't want to be fighting a baby Black Hole Dragon at level 1.

Upper_Krust said:

Hiya mate!



Occult references to positive and negative forces, Od and Ob.

Click to expand...

OK thanks.

I think I would maybe lump this in with Gelid and Plasma in that its better suited as a power rather than an energy type.

Also, Incorporeal in 4E just means half damage, so to overcome it you just need to deal double damage.

Click to expand...

Sure, it should probably just be an unique ability of the one monster that I have in mind that does that.

I meant something like reversing the normal incorporeal effect - so that it does twice the damage to incorporeal creatures that it does to corporeal ones, rather than half.

(In 3.5e it would probably ignore the miss chance, and deal a larger die type damage - something like horrid wilting does vs. plants and water creatures.)

I don't see why? I think the 7-level gap seems about right to me. You don't want to be fighting a baby Black Hole Dragon at level 1.

Click to expand...

Not for the normal true, epic/neotic, adamic, or nehaschimic dragons ... but I have an idea floating around for the Resonant (Wave) Dragon that (in 3.5e) E