LEB Discussion Thread '10

evilbob · Oct 8, 2010

KD, I don't understand your logic or your example (+1 to hit > +3 damage), but I think I might be getting your point...

If we allowed expertise feats (currently forbidden), changed the +1/2/3 house rule bonus to a feat bonus (currently untyped), then people could take the expertise feats if they wanted to get the extra features - they just wouldn't stack. It's effectively the same as allowing the feats with no house rule, but it fixes the problem with people who have multiple weapons/implements/attacks (since they get the +1 feat bonus to everything), AND it doesn't force anyone to take the feats since they'll get the bonus anyway.

Of all solutions, I hate this the least!

The only sticky point is level 4. Currently, I'm pretty sure 100% of PCs made on LEB start at level 4. If we changed the house rules to exactly what I said above, someone could take an expertise feat before level 5 and get the +1 bonus for a single level before the auto-rule kicked in. Obviously this doesn't bother me (as stated above), but it might make others raise an eyebrow.

evilbob · Oct 8, 2010

stonegod said:
Right now, as written, only the PH2 Expertise feats are forbidden.

Wow, I did not get that at all from the house rules; I read that all expertise feats are forbidden. It doesn't make much sense any other way, since they are spread out over multiple books. Anyway, it seems like the whole issue could stand some clarification.

KarinsDad · Oct 8, 2010

evilbob said:
KD, I don't understand your logic or your example (+1 to hit > +3 damage), but I think I might be getting your point...

If we allowed expertise feats (currently forbidden), changed the +1/2/3 house rule bonus to a feat bonus (currently untyped), then people could take the expertise feats if they wanted to get the extra features - they just wouldn't stack.

Actually, I was unaware that the LEB house rule wasn't a feat bonus.

I like it the way it is because feats like Draconic Spellcaster currently stack with the LEB house rule.

I wouldn't want to change that. I don't want to throw out a bunch of "feat bonus" feats that currently work.

So, the only two solutions I see are:

1) Change the LEB rule from "untyped bonus" to "house rule bonus" and change the new Expertise feats from "feat bonus" to "house rule bonus".

That way, people can take the new feats, but they will only get the +1 bonus to hit on a few specific levels. This might make them a "must take feat" at level 11, but we really don't have that many PCs at that level yet and we can revisit the issue if it becomes a problem.

2) Disallow any of the Expertise feats. Do we really need to have these cool new feats from the Esentials line, or can we throw them out because they will be unbalanced, especially as PCs start getting up to level 11 and they become a must take feat.

I am leaning towards #2. We have thousands of feats, do we really need a few extra ones here in LEB that are more or less must have at level 11 because they are so potent? I'm opposed to adding a flat +1 bonus to hit with these feats. That's worse.

Velmont · Oct 8, 2010

Personally, I would just like to have the LEB bonus to be a feta bonus. After that, if you still want the other effect from an expertise feat, you can always take it. I don't mind those feat become underpowered. Not every feat are equal and that's fine, but I just don't like the idea to see feat coming and growing in power.

Otakkun · Oct 8, 2010

If I had a vote, I'd vote for allowing all expertise feats and making the LEB bonus a feat bonus as well.

Seems easier to understand.

KarinsDad · Oct 8, 2010

Velmont said:
Personally, I would just like to have the LEB bonus to be a feta bonus. After that, if you still want the other effect from an expertise feat, you can always take it. I don't mind those feat become underpowered. Not every feat are equal and that's fine, but I just don't like the idea to see feat coming and growing in power.

The problem with doing this is that you blow away a lot of feats that are currently legitimate in LEB such as Draconic Spellcaster, Gnome Phantasmist, Diabolic Soul, etc.

I think we should consider the Expertise capability in LEB to be a math fix and we should consider not allowing any of the Expertise feats, or minimally, not allowing the +1/+2/+3 of any of the Expertise feats, regardless of source.

evilbob · Oct 8, 2010

That makes less sense to me because Draconic Spellcaster, Gnome Phantasmist, Diabolic Soul, AND all the expertise feats are currently all feat bonuses.

The game is already set up to make those feats you list all the same bonus as the expertise feats: they don't stack. Your suggestion actually undoes this to make a new special kind of feat out of all those feats. If that's what you're interested in, I'd say create a proposal to change Draconic Spellcaster, Gnome Phantasmist, and Diabolic Soul to a different, stackable bonus type. That seems like a completely different argument.

Throwing out all the new expertise feats that also give rider effects seems extreme to me, especially since some people have already expressed that they would take the feats just for the rider effects - even without gaining a +to hit from them.

Also, just to clarify: the way the rules are written right now, you COULD take a new expertise feat from the essentials book AND get a +1/2/3 untyped bonus at level 5/15/25. Is that something that people like or dislike?

Velmont · Oct 8, 2010

If Draconic Spellcaster (and other such feat) is not stackable with Expertise feat, I don't see why it should be stackable with the free LEB bonus. Stacking, is, in my opinion, just making the same problem that was before the Expertise feat appear, but in favor of the player.

Anyway, I think there will be no solution that won't affect the efficiency of some feat.

To answer EB, no the should NOT stack. As I said, it would bring back the problem, but this time, in favor of the player. Don't forget one thing, we are trying to find the most useful and elegant way to fix a math problem that D&D have introduce and have solve with a penalizing and not elegant way.

KarinsDad · Oct 8, 2010

evilbob said:
That makes less sense to me because Draconic Spellcaster, Gnome Phantasmist, Diabolic Soul, AND all the expertise feats are currently all feat bonuses.

The game is already set up to make those feats you list all the same bonus as the expertise feats: they don't stack. Your suggestion actually undoes this to make a new special kind of feat out of all those feats. If that's what you're interested in, I'd say create a proposal to change Draconic Spellcaster, Gnome Phantasmist, and Diabolic Soul to a different, stackable bonus type. That seems like a completely different argument.

The core game is already set up that these 3 feats are viable. They don't stack with Expertise, but people are not required to take Expertise.

The LEB game is already set up that these 3 feats are totally viable.

By changing the LEB bonuses to attack rolls (which are a patch to the rules) to a feat bonus, you make these 3 (and several other) feats non-viable.

My idea here is: Don't negate these feats in an effort to add in the new, sexier feats which are stronger than any of these feats.

Just because the designers at WotC screwed up by making the math patch a bunch of feats instead of just fixing the darn game doesn't mean that we should do that here at LEB as well.

By making the LEB house rule a non-feat bonus, the judges already decided to not screw it up like WotC did. They put the patch into the rules where it belongs, not into feats. By making the house rule a feat bonus, you negate a lot of conditional feats that were nice, but not overpowered like the new Essential feats are.

evilbob said:
Throwing out all the new expertise feats that also give rider effects seems extreme to me, especially since some people have already expressed that they would take the feats just for the rider effects - even without gaining a +to hit from them.

It's not excessive. Every single one of these new Expertise feats is a WotC bandaid for another Wotc bandaid (the original Expertise feats).

We should throw out the +1/+2/+3 part of them since LEB already hands that out.

That way, they are just feats with a specific effect. Not great, but not terrible either.

evilbob said:
Also, just to clarify: the way the rules are written right now, you COULD take a new expertise feat from the essentials book AND get a +1/2/3 untyped bonus at level 5/15/25. Is that something that people like or dislike?

Not until October 21 you cannot.

And, we obviously do not want this, so we do need a house rule here.

But throwing out the Draconic Spellcaster, Gnome Phantasmist, and Diabolic Soul feats is questionable. We shouldn't change the LEB house rule to do that. Those feats are conditional bonuses already (although the GP one is totally under the control of the player).

Explain to me why the new Essential feats should trump these and other feats. I don't think they should. They are a hack due to the fact that the last hack was so lame. These feats are already limiting. You have to be a Gnome and use illusion powers. You have to be a Dragonborn, etc. Not everyone can take them and the PCs that do take them, have a limit of some sort or other to their utillity. Unlike the new sexier feats that everyone will want to take.

But if we change the house rule to a feat bonus, we throw a lot of other weaker limited feats out the door completely, just to put in a math fix that we already have in the house rules. The only problem here is the new sexier Essential feats AFAIKT, not the old ones.