PROPOSAL: Allow Non-Kalashtar to "initiate" the conversation...

elecgraystone

First Post
It sounds like a power to me, If it were a language I could take it as one of my bonus languages, right?
LOl I thought about that myself but I wasn't going to add more to my last post.

Without quoting any rules a power seems to be something that not everyone can do, isn't that what this telepathy is?
I think the reason it isn't stated out as a power is because it has 0% combat affects AND it's a free (at-will) action to use. It's much the same as the kenku's mimicry isn't stated out when it's very close to the wizards ghost sounds and the changelings changeling disuise and they are. The difference is action type and frequency of use. Why stat it when you can just do it any time you want?

Since I can't see a difference between vocal disgise and visual disguise, I can't see treating them differently other than action used. Same goes for telepathy. It's a 'power' (IMO) that's free (at-will) action, so a stat block was unneeded.

When Telepathy can be found on a monsters sheet, it is still listed under Languages.
Since we are talking about Kalashtar there stats are all that matters. They do not have telepathy as a language.

Two-way communication is by definition, both ways.
AGAIN... two way doesn't imply ALWAYS two way. As I pointed out, you can say a drawbridge allows two way movement but that doesn't mean you have that movement at all times. You need something extra stated to make your statement true.

If the non-Kalashtar cannot initiate conversation, it no longer meets the definition of two-way.
Ah... not seeing how you get from A to B.

You can call him, that is one direction, when he can call you, that is two directions.
No one direction is is send thought; you say something and they can't reply. Telepathy is you saying something and they reply. So all two ways means is the ability of the person you call to answer back. There isn't any implication of them being able to initiate the communication. Nothing in the definition says that two way means "ALWAYS allowing or entailing communication or exchange between two persons, groups, countries, etc."

Telepathy is not a power, because it doesn't have a power block. It is not at-will or encounter, it does not have a target, it is not cast/prayed/exploited, it cannot be turned off, and it is not on.
at-will means you can do it as often as you want. Check

Doesn't have a target? Huh? it says you CAN communicate with creatures not that you have to. As such you have to be able to target.

Can't be turned off? Since aura isn't a power and it can be turned off, you can't say that non-powers can't be turned off. Also as above nothing says I HAVE to comunicate, which implies I can not do it.

it is not it is not cast/prayed/exploited? What does this mean? Racial powers don't have a power source so by default you would never have to it is not cast/prayed/exploited
 

log in or register to remove this ad

elecgraystone

First Post
Ok wanted to post this as a different post. It's clear to me that Stonegod and CaBaNa read something into two way that I just don't see. As such I don't see how we'll ever come to a meeting of the minds on how it should work from a rules standpoint.

As such I say vote on this from a role playing standpoint. Is it fair and fun for all to allow this? That I don't know. I don't think it's bother me but I can see someone else not having any fun because they aren't one of the cool that gets talked to.

To be quite honest I'd be tempted to have telepathy as true mental speech. You talk to everyone in range and everyone can talk back to you. That way everyone knows you are talking. they just don't catch the reply unless you take the feat for it.
 

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
I do want to ask you a question though stonegod. Why would a player of a Kalashtar PC ever take the Group Mind feat if the judges allow non-Kalashtar PCs to initiate telepathy? Merely to save a few free actions in combat in a game where the DM is stingy with free actions?
Two responses to this: First, I see the use as the Group mind feat as two fold: Any PC and talk to any other PC with the kalashtar present, and there can be simultaneous conversation. This ties into my second point which I stated before: That there is a difference between serial conversation and non-serial conversation. A DM or judge the permits unlimited serial conversations during a combat turn is being as unrealistic as one that allows paragraphs of conversation of in the short time of a free action. Both should not be allowed, but there isn't good rules guidance on how much.
Ok wanted to post this as a different post. It's clear to me that Stonegod and CaBaNa read something into two way that I just don't see. As such I don't see how we'll ever come to a meeting of the minds on how it should work from a rules standpoint.
The fundamental difference between the two points of views comes back to my original analogy made before, I think: The difference between a communication framework akin to a sense or what more akin to channel. Unfortunately, there isn't strong evidence one way or the other. I agree there could be abuses with the sense model, but I do not see it being more abusive than allowing more than a reasonable amount of speech in a round.
To be quite honest I'd be tempted to have telepathy as true mental speech. You talk to everyone in range and everyone can talk back to you. That way everyone knows you are talking. they just don't catch the reply unless you take the feat for it.
Which is pretty much along the lines of my thoughts.
 

elecgraystone

First Post
The difference between a communication framework akin to a sense or what more akin to channel.
I can see it as a channel but for me it's the telepath that turns on the phone/shortwave so that he can hear. Everyone has a different mental channel that only the telepath can hear but that doesn't help if the telepath isn't listening.

I agree there could be abuses with the sense model, but I do not see it being more abusive than allowing more than a reasonable amount of speech in a round.
I don't really see much abuse myself as long as no one goes overboard. I see it more as as issue that may bother non-telepath players, which is different than an abuse issue.


Which is pretty much along the lines of my thoughts.

I think this would get rid of all the worries about 'secret' talked behind peoples backs or not being included. I still think it'd be a good idea for the telepath to be able to 'close himself off' if they want. No one wants to be kept up at night because the night shift guard is thinking too loud.

A non-telepath can cover their ears or put in ear plugs if they don't want to hear. It seems a bit unfair that the telepath doesn't have the same options to block out talking.
 

Moon_Goddess

Have I really been on this site for over 20 years!
To be quite honest I'd be tempted to have telepathy as true mental speech. You talk to everyone in range and everyone can talk back to you. That way everyone knows you are talking. they just don't catch the reply unless you take the feat for it.

That's how I run it in my home game, exactly like that and it works just fine. So yes, even the goblin fighting hears it.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
elecgraystone has brought up a humorous point.

I see the sides of both points and if I voted on the proposal, I'd vote Yes.

Val will pay for this decision. Drow don't sleep at night. Call Sheeva flighty behind her back, will ya?

"96 bottles of ale on the wall, 96 bottles of ale..."

All night long. And nobody else in the group will ever hear it. Mwa ha ha ha ha. :lol:


Be careful what you wish for. ;)
 
Last edited:

KarinsDad

Adventurer
The fundamental difference between the two points of views comes back to my original analogy made before, I think: The difference between a communication framework akin to a sense or what more akin to channel.

I view it slightly different. It's the difference between the Kalashtar controlling the ability (like speaking) and not controlling the ability (like hearing).
 

Kalidrev

First Post
ElecGrayStone said:
I think the reason it isn't stated out as a power is because it has 0% combat affects AND it's a free (at-will) action to use. It's much the same as the kenku's mimicry isn't stated out when it's very close to the wizards ghost sounds and the changelings changeling disuise and they are. The difference is action type and frequency of use. Why stat it when you can just do it any time you want?

The racial ability is not an "at-will" ability, nor is it a free action, per say, though I do get your point EGS. The ability CAN be used as much as one wants to in any given day, and in my opinion should be restricted similarly to how in character speech is restricted. Speech is a free action that can be done as much as one wants to, though DMs usually restrict dialog mid-combat to something pretty short (realistically, how much can one say in 6 seconds?). I completely agree with the idea that it should be one-on-one at any given time, but I do not see why this should mean that a short message (less than 2 or 3 seconds long) could not be relayed to one or two other PCs in that same round.

And I do not think that doing exactly that should take up any more time resources than basic speech, simply because people can talk to each other and do other things at the same time.

As far as the Kenku Mimicry and Wizards Ghost Sound spell are concerned, the Kenku ability is innate and simply uses the creatures ability to make sound. The wizards Ghost Sound is a spell, which usually requires some kind of extra movement or verbal recitation to create the effects. Its like the difference between imitating a celebrity voice (if you're good at that sort of thing) and getting a cassette tape/CD/whatever physical media and placing that into a player, then pressing the Play button.

The Kenku's requires a bluff check to be believable and the sound always emanates from the Kenku, whereas the wizard spell simply creates the sound, no check needed, emanating from any object or unoccupied square within range.

ElecGrayStone said:
Since we are talking about Kalashtar there stats are all that matters. They do not have telepathy as a language.

I fully agree. It is not a language. A language is something that cannot be understood by someone else that does not know that language. Telepathy is a form of communication that can be understood by anyone with a language and is within range of the Kalashtar.

ElecGrayStone said:
AGAIN... two way doesn't imply ALWAYS two way. As I pointed out, you can say a drawbridge allows two way movement but that doesn't mean you have that movement at all times. You need something extra stated to make your statement true.

As CBN pointed out, the only requirement for the ability to be in effect is that a creature with a language must be within line of sight and within 5 squares of the Kalashtar. Once those requirements are met, two-way communication is possible.

Does that not mean that the creature with a language can communicate with you whenever he wants while the requirements are met? Where are the other requirements saying that the Kalashtar must activate the ability? Why is there no action type shown for this activation? What are the conditions and actions of activating a use of speaking Common (not SPEAKING common, but activating the ability to SPEAK the language)? There isn't one. It's simply a form of communication.

Telepathy is NOT a language on it's own, much like the air that surrounds us is not a language. The air around us is simply the physical path that vibrations take to get from the origin of sound to another persons' ears. Telepathy is the mental path that thoughts take to get from the originators mind to another mind. The only difference here is that the telepathic communication is a conduit between only two creatures (the Kalashtar and the other), but much like the air around us, it does not specify where the origination of the thoughts/sound occurs.

ElecGrayStone said:
Can't be turned off? Since aura isn't a power and it can be turned off, you can't say that non-powers can't be turned off. Also as above nothing says I HAVE to comunicate, which implies I can not do it.

I agree with you here. The word CAN in the first sentence of the description of Telepathy implies that you have the option not to acknowledge a telepathic message. While it does not state it explicitly, I would think that this would mean that the other party could choose not to as well (but that's something for another debate all together).
 



Remove ads

Top