Bad DM'GM'ing

Blackbrrd

First Post
There is no excuse for the DM if he makes an impossible hard encounter. This isn't true for all editions of DnD. 4e fights last long enough for the players to understand that they should run. For previous editions, the players should have plenty of hints of where this is going. (Hello mr level 14 cleric with the madness domain and 3 rounds to prepare)

The biggest problem I have had with DM's are those that don't help the game along if it's stuck. They just sit there without giving any additional clues. The game stops and people start chatting about real life and want to play a board game instead.

I once gave a huge problem to the players and they just sat there unable to come up with a viable plan. They probably spent 2-3 hours bickering before I gave them hints enough of what they could do. It's important to know your players.
 

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Sunking

First Post
Also dont steal the players spotlight, don't (or only after the greatest considerating) throw in a NPC who is just better to all then one of the players (or all of the at once)

Had a DM in 2ed who loved the avartar serie so a few times we used a couple of sessions getting quest-> traveling to location-> watching gods (or avartars) fight-> get loot and XP.... not fun

A mistake i made myself in my young (read ancient) DM'ning year was not letting bad thing happen, if the players did somthing horrely stupid i would make little ajustments and all would be fine, if they attaked a monster way out of theyr league i would have Npc rousing in and save the day...
Effekt after a while the players figured this out and desidet to se how far i would let it slide, so 2ed d&d 4 char around 7 lvl desides to rid the world of dragons, well safe to say i lerned my lesson and made TTK with the 2 greatwyrm the attacked

After that we all sat down and talked, my group were glad becaus the felt it wasent the same if there wernt a risk.
 

MadLordOfMilk

First Post
A bad DM is a DM who doesn't want to improve, and/or doesn't care about his game or players.

A good DM is a DM who's willing to learn from his mistakes, and actually gives a damn.
 

awesomeocalypse

First Post
In contrast to all of the complaints about railroading, I've found that while a poorly run railroad is bad, it is at least playable, which cannot be said for a poorly run sandbox. That is, if a DM does not have a lot of experience in effectively running a sandbox, especially when it comes to creating a narrative out of the way the players interact with the world, it is very, very easy for such a campaign to quickly devolve into "just a bunch of stuff that happens", with no real narrative momentum to speak of. This problem is exacerbated if the players have made no effort to make sure that their characters share goals or indeed have any real reason to work together apart from the fact that they're all pcs.

There's also the fact that, if everyone is more or less on the same page in terms of pcs sharing a goal which also happens to be the goal the DM has in mind for the campaign, some degree of railroading can make it much easier for the DM to go all out in designing some really cool, innovative scenes and encounters.

To use an actual example from my own DMing experience, when I know for certain that the PCs will at some point make it to the wizard's lair, then its a lot easier to justify spending half of my Saturday designing the most awesome, innovative wizard's lair I can. In that case, I decided that the wizard's lair was in fact the control room inside a giant golem, and the final showdown made heavy use of that fact--players and monsters faced off in a room full of chains and levers and pulleys, each of which affected the battle in some way. Pull one lever and the golem stoops, causing the entire room to slant so that everyone who fails a save is knocked prone, and until the room is righted the extreme angle means it gets treated as difficult terrain (which could be circumvented by swining on chains--but watch out, because pulling some of those chains has actual effects, like turning off the magical lights and plunging the room into darkness). It was a really cool, memorable encounter. My players loved it, and I loved running and designing it.

But, I don't know that I ever would have taken all of that prep time if I hadn't known that at some point, one way or another the pcs were gonna face off with the evil wizard. I didn't know exactly how or when they would get to it, but I knew that the giant golem was a major threat to the city the players had sworn to defend, and that once they did some digging they would figure out a wizard was in control of it, and if they followed up on those leads eventually they'd find their way to his lair. But if the players hadn't had that shared goal of defending the town, and the wizard had therefore been just one of a theoretically infinite numbers of challenges around the world that they could very well decide to pursue, I probably would have just jotted down a few notes on who the wizard is, what he acts like and what his goals are, maybe a couple of contingencies (e.g. if the players have found x artifact, he may seek them out to steal it from them or bargain for it), and then his stats as a monster. Call me lazy, but if I'm gonna spend hours designing a scene or encounter, I'd like to know it will be used in some way.

Or to use another example, Gabe at Penny Arcade attracted a lot of attention for posting some incredibly awesome encounters he'd designed--one of which involved actual lasers and mirrors, another was a combat that took place throughout an extended freefall. He's since moved the campaign into a more sandboxy style (which he also has a really cool and innovative approach to), and in discussing the transition he himself said that those incredibly awesome, innovative encounters were to some degree made possible by railroading. That is, he was able to spend ages creating those incredibly awesome encounters because he knew without a doubt that his players would eventually run into those situations. And, to be perfectly honest, as a player if I knew my DM had some incredibly awesome stuff like that planned, I'd be okay with some degree of railroading to get there.

The railroad/sandbox divide is tricky to navigate, and in fact most campaigns that I've really enjoyed and that have stuck with me have incorporated elements of each at varying points, just as Gabe is doing, and as I strive to do to some degree in my own campaigns (I typically attempt to create a world that has the potential for some degree of productive sandboxing, and to allow time for player-directed action to exploit that. but I also usually have a few big, overarching plots that I have a much clearer idea of how they will develop, and I work with my players to make sure that the goals of their characters would be in line with, or at least no directly conflict with, the major overarching plot).

But I do think that railroading often gets an unnecessarily bad rap--having some idea of what will happen makes it much easier for a DM to make sure that "what will happen" is something completely awesome, and it certainly makes it easier to build a really fleshed out story.
 
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Nifft

Penguin Herder
I don't use the term "railroad" to describe anything good.
In that case, you're using the word differently than I do, and differently than lightgun_suicide did.

You agree that there are times when it's good to constrain player and/or character choice, and that's the important bit, so ... yeah.

Cheers, -- N
 

Coldwyn

First Post
I don´t think railroading makes a bad dm. As long as the players are having fun, nothing´s wrong here.

A bad dm, in my view, simply disregards the wishes and gaming style of the players, what could be in wrong pacing, disregarding players choices, minimizing they sucesses and improvements, forcing decisions, meddling in a players handling of his pc, and so on.
 

Theo R Cwithin

I cast "Baconstorm!"
Bad DMs don't listen to the players. When they make suggestions or complain, talk to them. You don't have to do everything they want, but have a good reason for doing it "your way". Also, ask them for their opinions, what they'd like to see, critique, etc; some players will just sit there and stew rather than bring up what's bothering them themselves, so it's good make it clear that you're open to listening to them.

Bad DMs let DMPCs become the focus. Keep the players' PCs at the center of attention. Otherwise it's B.O.R.I.N.G. for them.

Bad DMs don't t ry to keep everyone involved. It's not always possible (or even necessary) to do all the time, but try to structure adventures and encounters so everyone gets to be hero for a bit, or at least contribute.

Bad DMs burn out. If things are getting unfun, do something else for a while: let another player take the reins for a couple months, play a different game/style/campaign, or something. IMHO, it's better to put things on hold for a while and come back later to finish a campaign in style, rather than let it just fizzle and fall apart, and maybe part with bad blood.


A bad DM killed Blackleaf!
 
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lightgun_suicide

First Post
Thanks all! Some valueable advice.

In particular the advice about railroading/sandboxing. My campaign is rather linear, if I'm totally honest. Its a Ravenloft dark realm of my own brew, based roughly on Countess Elisibath Bathory.

--Long background note--

The overall plot can be summed up in less than a paragraph: they arrived through the mists (by the players own choice, none of them are native to Ravenloft). Every night a girl under the age of 21 goes missing from the first they encounter. As soon as a town has no more girls for the mists to take to Countess Bethany Hungria (Bathory was of Hungurian birth), the town instantly dies, becoming the walking dead (hostile to the living). The Countess was successfully tried in Saxonia (Bathory ruled Transylvannia, which for generations was populated soley by Saxon tribes) by the king and sealed away in her castle. Now the Dark Powers are repeating history, sending a new set of inquisitors (the PC's, although none of them are yet aware) to repeat history and stop her from using her youth-maintaining spell again.

Oppotunities for sandboxing? Little, few and far between. I added a psychedelic horror element that a kind of madness in the world rather than the mind can occur, rooms and buildings flickering uncontrollably into reality. Occultists of Saxonia from 200 years in the future (Victorian culture era) have been placed here through their own dabling, so the PC's will at some stage encounter the (entire module!) I've written involving a Victorian era town and occultists help.

--/ended--

The players have been fantastic with their own suggestions and backgrounds and have done a great job of messing up the order of the first few encounters, but their contribution has made for an exciting game. I worry that I might have to railroad quite significantly to get the story I had in mind anywhere, but I want to offer them more options than they currently seem to feel they have.
 

pawsplay

Hero
In that case, you're using the word differently than I do, and differently than lightgun_suicide did.

You agree that there are times when it's good to constrain player and/or character choice, and that's the important bit, so ... yeah.

Cheers, -- N

I just wanted to be clear what I was saying. Since I know of no other word for a particular degenerated style of play, and there are several other ways to describe various styles of play that are fine and dandy but follow a more linear or programmed path, I prefer to use railroad strictly as a term for the problematic play style.
 

N0Man

First Post
Picking an experience with a bad DM is easy...

My first campaign set in Eberron, first game in 3.5 after years of of not playing... It was described to me as a setting with pretty common magic, urban settings, politics, and so forth...

My character concept was a detective type character, strong in social and investigative situations, weak in combat, with some utility, with some sneakiness, bluffing, and being a bit of a trickster. I had so much trouble making it, and he was absolutely inflexible in allowing me to houserule very minor things that were NOT overpowered at all. I considered a character with levels in Wizard (Specialist: Diviner) , but that opposes Illusion and I wanted to be a trickster. He flat out refused to allow me to choose to oppose other schools instead (I offered giving up both Evocation and Necromancy), but no luck. I think he wanted me to give up 3 schools in exchange for it (which by the rules, Diviners usually only give up 1, I offered 2, and it's already the weakest specialization already)>

I suggested building it as a bard, but there were a few specific spells I really wanted, and again, he was unwilling to allow me to give up anything (even more powerful options) to allow me to use those spells as a bard just because I wanted them to fit the concept better. So, I gave up trying that, but asked him if I could at least trade one of my normal skills (I offered a list of the ones I'd be willing to drop) to have Search as non-Cross Class. He outright refused, unless I gave up both Use Magic Item and another skill that wasn't on my list, that was part of the concept...

So eventually, I started a character, with only a slight resemblance towards my concept, maxed out for urban and social encounters as much as I could make it.

Then, after all this going back and forth, as he tried to make me even weaker in non-urban settings than I already was... our first session had him railroad us within 20 minutes out of the biggest city on the planet, to a frontier continent with little population, bumbling around in the jungle...

And when I commented about he just completely screwed me in all this... he just laughed... he laughed very hard.

He was within the rules, within his rights, but it was knowingly making a character give up all the things that make him useful outside an urban setting, then taking him out of an urban setting so he's dead weight for the rest of the campaign... and gloating over it...

And... it gets worse, much worse...
 

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