Proposal: Allow Character Builder summary sheets in place of EW templates

Kalidrev · Feb 23, 2010

That's a nice wish, LadyLaw, but unfortunately, 99% of the people who play here are not coders, and those that are may not know wiki coding and/or are unwilling to code something so complicated.

If we were going to do that, we may as well have this said coder create something that could translate CB sheets into the math section as well, this way you could either do it by hand or submit your character builder summary to get the math section that everyone could see. That would be a ridiculous amount of coding, lol.

Mal Malenkirk · Feb 23, 2010

I had a dream...

... that most players would just submit a CB file through e-mail to the judges to get approved. Those without the CB would submit their number the old fashioned way in a preaproved .doc format and then a reviewer or a judge would enter it in the CB.

Then we would link the files and the images of the character sheets generated to the wiki in an alphabetical character library.

DM could just download the files of the PCs on their CB or otherwise consult the character sheet and be ready to go. Those without would check the character sheet.

Bliss...

Personnally, I enter all the stats of the PCs in my adventure in my CB. It's less hassle to browse through them in my CB through the wiki, IMO.

LadyLaw · Feb 23, 2010

I don't think it's that bad. The math section isn't that terrible. I could put it together in Excel no problem, I just don't know how to then get it to show correctly in this format.

At any rate, I figure if people had the knowledge or time, that would have been done long ago. It's why I said I wish that I knew how to code it because the light knows I have more than enough time on my hands. Unfortunately, each wiki seems to work differently, so even if I knew how to code it into a wiki, there's no guarantee it would work in this particular one.

elecgraystone · Feb 23, 2010

renau1g said:
I'm not saying we should go ahead and get rid of the math section, but I do know that I've never looked at a player's math section in any of the games I've DM'd.

Well I'm not saying we shouldn't add CB to the math section, just that we shouldn't scrap the math section and only have the CB. As far as GM's and the math sections, it seems to me if a GM thinks "how did they do that" or "why is that bonus so high" they shouldn't have to ask someone else to find out.

renau1g said:
That's what the judges/reviewers are for. I have looked at Player's summary sections at the top of the CS, but never the math.

I should mention that I found a mistake on my sheet when I leveled up to 5th that had been there since 1st. Nothing huge but it was there. Mistakes happen and the reviewers aren't perfect. The GM should have the option to check the math if they think something is off.

stonegod said:
the math section is for the reviewers

So a GM or Judge shouldn't be able to check the math if they think something is off? Seems odd to me...

As far as me seeing the math section, that'd be nice but not required to run things smoothly. If I was a GM I know I'd want to be able to look at the math section.

stonegod said:
I'll turn the argument a bit around: How many folks are we losing because the template formatting for the math section drives them away? We have some evidence that it does.

Oh, the wiki templates suck, no question. I've been working with them for a while and I still don't want to use them. Part of the reason I waited so long to start up a second character was the fact that I didn't want to go thought the hassle of using them again.

I'd be up for any suggestion that'd make the sheet easier to use/make. However dumping the math section IMO isn't the answer. It'd just make the sheet suck a little less while making the math unreadable to people that I think should be able to.

I think Lady Law's suggestion holds more merit. If we could make the sheet just plain easier to use in every section, I think that would makes things better. If we just 'fix' the math section, they still have to work out wiki in the rest of the sheet. It isn't a sheet where you fill in the numbers and go from there and I think that's the turnoff. A slightly easier wiki page is still a wiki page and not a traditional sheet.

ryryguy · Feb 23, 2010

elecgraystone said:
Not having a math section that's readable without CB mean that you are "requiring" anyone that wants to look at said math section to have it.

That is true, but the question then is who wants or needs to look at the math section?

elecgraystone said:
At a minimum that'd be every GM, Judge and checker.

No, at a minimum that's one judge and one checker who check the sheet. Then you keep saying that GMs need to check it, but I'm not convinced. Is there any GM who has gone on record as needing to see the math, in their role as GM?

elecgraystone said:
As a player that often looks at others sheets so see how/why they did something, it'd be a 'requirement' for me.

Ok, that I guess you would lose. I would personally be willing to give that up if the gains were great enough. I think you could still figure out how the character was put together from the Summary section for 90% of builds. The last 10% you might have to puzzle over longer without the math section, but you could still do it.

And still, I would trade off the ability for a few people to more easily satisfy idle curiosity about a few builds if we were getting a significant decrease in the amount of time needed to create and check sheets for a great number of players. Yep, I would make that trade.

Probably no sense arguing about it more, I think the positions are pretty clear. Hopefully at some point the judges will actually vote.

ryryguy · Feb 23, 2010

ryryguy said:
Probably no sense arguing about it more, I think the positions are pretty clear. Hopefully at some point the judges will actually vote.

Addendum: the above came out slightly wrong, I meant that my position is clear and I won't argue it any more. I wasn't trying to shut down the discussion... if someone wants to say "I am a GM and I need the math section while GMing", I'd want to hear that!

renau1g · Feb 23, 2010

Mal Malenkirk said:
I had a dream...

... that most players would just submit a CB file through e-mail to the judges to get approved. Those without the CB would submit their number the old fashioned way in a preaproved .doc format and then a reviewer or a judge would enter it in the CB.

Then we would link the files and the images of the character sheets generated to the wiki in an alphabetical character library.

DM could just download the files of the PCs on their CB or otherwise consult the character sheet and be ready to go. Those without would check the character sheet.

Bliss...

Personnally, I enter all the stats of the PCs in my adventure in my CB. It's less hassle to browse through them in my CB through the wiki, IMO.

This would be great possibly, if the CB was infallible, unfortunately it's not. There's frequently times that certain feats selected don't copy over to the power cards section. Also, if we went this route, would you be able to set up the page? I think this has some potential. Only one judge (I believe) doesn't have DDI, but they're not too involved in character checking anyways (possibly because they don't have the CB

). There are still a couple issues with this:

1) Violates WoTC's policy of only one user as technically those without DDI are getting the benefit of it (I think, I'm no lawyer)
2) Will require the judges/reviewers to have to input into the builder, although it's likely around the same amount, perhaps a bit less, than current reviewing.

We'd also need the "preapproved" word doc, but that wouldn't be too hard.

One site that may work is iPlay4e - play 4e Dungeons and Dragons (D&D) online!

We could set-up a campaign for L4W then upload the CB files here... then the players (all of them) and judges can see the sheets, math is already calculated, but is visible.... hmmm....we do have to come up with something, because I don't think the wiki's staying around forever right? They're changing it soon-ish?

LadyLaw · Feb 23, 2010

If you're willing to use some sort of pre-approved word doc or spreadsheet for character submission, then why not just use that as the sheet in general. You could link it the same way you would link the CB files and wouldn't need to worry about having CB to open them. You could even go so far as to save them as PDF before linking so that anyone with a PDF viewer can see them instead of requiring microsoft products (just in case we have any Mac purists out there).

I think any type of document or spreadsheet based template would be much easier to understand in-so-far as filling it in is concerned.

renau1g · Feb 23, 2010

I was thinking essentially an input sheet (I'm assuming this is what Mal's talking about) where you enter your stats, list your powers/feats/background. The reviewer inputs into CB then uploads CB file.

Likely a google doc, but are there any Mac users out there without Boot Camp (that's the word right?) and Office?

LadyLaw · Feb 23, 2010

I believe there is actually a Mac version of Office. However, I'll be honest and say that if I had a Mac I wouldn't load Boot Camp on it, and I do know a few people who feel the same. (That's what I meant by a Mac purist, one who won't use Boot Camp.) I don't know if anyone on this site is in that boat, but such people do exist.

Can you upload the CB file so that it will open as a web page? I know I can't actually view a CB file without the CB and my web host won't upload the files straight because it isn't a supported file type.