Proposal: Allow Character Builder summary sheets in place of EW templates

ryryguy · Feb 25, 2010

In response to covaithe et al:

Spending time writing up posts, crafting dialogue, plotting combat moves is fun and creative. That's why we do this!

Spending time wrestling with confusing and frustrating wiki templates is not fun. It is a necessary evil. If it can be made unnecessary we've improved the experience.

Just because PbP is slow and grindy by nature does not mean we shouldn't look for opportunities to increase speed and reduce grind. Particularly in this case since it hits a potential new player up front, before they get a chance to reach the fun stuff and get hooked. Intentionally keeping that experience difficult and slow to make sure new entrants are "serious" strikes me as perverse.

"Know your character" is good advice for sure. But I personally don't find that the math templates help achieve that end. Perhaps if you aren't using CB? But I get to know my character and build through making it in CB. I do not learn anything by re-entering the data in the math templates.

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 25, 2010

I wanted to chime in again, since I haven't replied in a couple of pages.

I have been doing a fair amount of character reviewing lately. Those that post the CB Summary cut my work down considerably.

As a DM, I do not look at the Math. I do look at the summary and I do look at the tracking section. I can't think of a way to do away with the tracking section, but at least new characters don't have to deal with that.

As a DM I do not like having multiple versions of the CB open. I find it takes up too many resources.

I would not have a with someone posting the CB Summary instead of math.

Now a couple of questions for people.

If the summary and the math tables were all connected and generated at the same time do we think that would be any easier? It should save people some time, but it would make the code bigger and may seem overwhelming/

I can't remember my 2nd question.

elecgraystone · Feb 25, 2010

Well the issue isn't knowing your characters but knowing wiki. Those are two different things entirely. I know my character back and forth but that doen't mean I don't dread level ups.

I'd be up for either ladylaw's or Phoenix8008 if the mechanics could be worked out. I wouldn't care is I had to redo my sheet if it would make everything easier. It'd be nice to actually look forward to leveling...

Phoenix8008 · Feb 25, 2010

Well I didn't say that I'd prefer to keep it the way it is. I would like a simpler method as long as DDI isn't required because I can't afford it. If those that have DDI can use the CB to make the judges jobs easier, then great. If we can find some other system besides the wiki to do it that is easier and will lower the work barrier to let more people play, then awesome.

And yes ScorpiusRisk, if the math stuff auto filled in and was connected to the summary that would make it lots easier. But it would still be using the wiki which might be disappearing.

renau1g · Feb 25, 2010

Phoenix8008 said:
But it would still be using the wiki which might be disappearing.

This is something I think we really need to look at. I'm sure nothing's changed so we'll be loosing it soon and so far there's been very little we've been able to do to look elsewhere/develop alternatives.

evilbob · Feb 25, 2010

elecgraystone said:
Well the issue isn't knowing your characters but knowing wiki. Those are two different things entirely.

I agree. I'm also a coder; I also took a good day or so to figure out how to work the wiki. None of this was influenced by how well I knew my character or the 4.0 math.

It seems like the group is asking for one of two things: either a better template, or a different system entirely. A better template is possible; is it a also waste of time?

elecgraystone · Feb 25, 2010

evilbob said:
It seems like the group is asking for one of two things: either a better template, or a different system entirely. A better template is possible; is it a also waste of time?

I think we've all come to the conclusion that something should be done to improve the sheets so that we can make it easier for the newcomer, the existing players and the reviewer to use them. It'd be up to the person that makes that template is it's a waste of time to them. If it made my live easier I wouldn't say it was a waste; quite the opposite in fact.

Phoenix8008 said:
But it would still be using the wiki which might be disappearing.

Yes, that seems a much bigger issue than how to make the wiki sheet better. This should be hashed out before we try to fix what might not be here sometime soon. I'd hate to see someone go through the trouble of improving the template and then having wiki go away and all that work go to waste.

ScorpiusRisk · Feb 25, 2010

But honestly at this point, if there was no wiki, what would we do? The information would have to be stored somewhere. Wouldn't we have to use some sort of off site wiki?

Even if we were master developers, anything publicly hosted cannot contain clear character creation mechanics. We cannot develop a system where people choose their feats from a drop down menu, and the effects of those feats are clearly discernible. As wonderful as such a system might be.

The only other choice I can think of is a plain text sheet.

elecgraystone · Feb 25, 2010

ScorpiusRisk said:
But honestly at this point, if there was no wiki, what would we do? The information would have to be stored somewhere. Wouldn't we have to use some sort of off site wiki?

If there was any way to not use wiki, I'd be for that.

ScorpiusRisk said:
Even if we were master developers, anything publicly hosted cannot contain clear character creation mechanics. We cannot develop a system where people choose their feats from a drop down menu, and the effects of those feats are clearly discernible. As wonderful as such a system might be.

I think it'd be fine as long as the effects of the feats aren't visible. For example, if I pick toughness and it adds 5 to my HP in the background, it'd be fine as long as toughness doesn't come out and say what it does. That way you'd still have to know what the feat does but the sheet knows and adds what it has to. At least that's my understanding.

EDIT: Check out this site that does something close to what I was saying.

http://www.pathguy.com/cg4.htm

ScorpiusRisk said:
The only other choice I can think of is a plain text sheet.

Honestly I don't see much difference between this and CB for math. People have said that they enter the character into CB to check it, what would be the difference if they do that from a wiki page or a text sheet?

stonegod · Feb 25, 2010

elecgraystone said:
EDIT: Check out this site that does something close to what I was saying.

Javascript Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Character Generator

Ugh: That is probably one of the poorest usability designs I have seen in a while. Its probably quite complex on the javascript (takes a minute to load on my browser), but its definitely not "simplified".