Vancian magic and 4e

Belaugured DM · Mar 9, 2010

First off I allways liked the Vancian magic system as a limiting factor that pays off for having serious magical energies in the long term. I understand it's limitations as well however. That being said, I dislike the sameness of the powers system for all classes now. So I got to thinking, what do you guys think of the concept of requiring saving throws vs fort when spells are cast? If a saving throw is failed then the caster must rest before being able to cast again. Kinda a way to represent the magical energies being expended taking a toll on the caster's system.

I figure for a spell lower than the casters level they might get a bonus to the fort check whereas a spell equal to their level they would require a regular saving throw or even a negative modifier if they have been popping off a lot of spells. I dunno its crude at this point but the thought just came to me, anyone want to contribute ideas?

Also I guess as a balance factor you either need to increase the potential of the spells as a sort of give back to casters or find a limiting endurance type factor for mêlée types perhaps.

tyrlaan · Mar 9, 2010

Well, off the cuff, I'd imagine there's a danger because you're now making STR or CON a "requirement" for casters. For some classes/builds this is moot since they already gain benefits from at least one of these stats, but for others it's going to spread them thin and weaken them compared to their peers.

If you made it some sort of skill check and tailored the check based on the class - shaman rolls a nature check, wizard rolls arcana, and so on, you can minimize or eliminate this.

Also, I'm assuming when you say "rest" that you mean extended rest. Note that if that's the case, this rule would have no impact on dailies, but I suspect you area only looking to do this to encounter powers?

FWIW, I actually think 4e is more vancian than ever before since all the classes have now have abilities that require recharging.

Anyway, top-of-the head food for thought.

Belaugured DM · Mar 9, 2010

Ya I meant extended rest. If they failed a check on a spell mid encounter they would be done with all spells till the extended rest. I don't know if I agree with a skill check, the whole point is magic should be taxing physically no? I mean I understand this is a stylistic preference probably but it reflects a lot of fantasy tropes that magic use is wearing to the caster.

Roger · Mar 9, 2010

It would take a bit of work, but I think if I wanted to build something like that, I'd start with the Ritual framework and work off it.

The spells would be mostly cast during the "preparation" phase (which might incur one or more saving throws or other mechanic) with the final discharge being held in abeyance, ready to be released (which might also incur saving throws or whatnot.)

It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want super-healthy decathlon-runners to be the best spell-casters? Make heavy use of Fortitude saves.

Cheers,
Roger

TerraDave · Mar 9, 2010

House rules, maybe?

Its pretty radical. Why not just have more vacian magic? Shift some encounters to dailies, and then let those be prepared, like Wizards can now?

Mallus · Mar 9, 2010

Belaugured DM said:
So I got to thinking, what do you guys think of the concept of requiring saving throws vs fort when spells are cast?

I think it will drive players to play classes which are not required to make a FORT save to use their powers.

I dunno its crude at this point but the thought just came to me, anyone want to contribute ideas?

Yes. This is a bad idea under 4e. It would work better in previous editions, where magic spells are the most powerful character shtick.

tyrlaan · Mar 9, 2010

Lose ALL spells until an extended rest? That sounds way too restrictive.

I understand the feel you're going for, but I think introducing a generalize check, like a Fort check, will have too severe ramifications on character builds. Or you'll see way more dragon magic sorcerers than wild magic sorcerers, for example.

Maybe you could get the same feel by introducing some kind of spell point mechanics? Or perhaps using a spell deals damage to you?

I'd also point out that adding a roll to each spell cast means adding more rolls to combat, which means slowing down combat.

TerraDave said:
Its pretty radical. Why not just have more vacian magic? Shift some encounters to dailies, and then let those be prepared, like Wizards can now?

This could work. It would require a lot of tweaking, but then I think anything you do to go for the feel you want will require a lot of tweaking, TBH.

Turtlejay · Mar 9, 2010

Prolly more appropriate for 4e House Rules...

If I were to try Vancian magic in 4e, classes that used it would get 1 Daily. . .total. Every time they leveled they could chose a new one to replace that one. In compensation, they would get more Encounter Powers, and memorize them as in Vancian magic, but only get to use them 1/day.

As a shot in the dark, a 5th level wizard might get to have 4 castings of a certain level. He choses Color Spray 3 times, because he really likes it, and OID once, because it can be useful. He gets to cast them once a day. He can also chose one daily to cast once a day, and he choses sleep.

Not a fan of it, but I like it better than making saves. It is less random, and encourages resource management.

Jay

WizarDru · Mar 9, 2010

Belaugured DM said:
Also I guess as a balance factor you either need to increase the potential of the spells as a sort of give back to casters or find a limiting endurance type factor for mêlée types perhaps.

I'm not quite sure how making spells harder to cast is going to recreate the Vancian system. The spells are still going to be 'samey', you just are going to have extra mechanics to slow down the process. Then you're looking to patch the patch, by either changing all the spells and then changing other classes powers to compensate.

I mean, I think Mallus is spot on...you're going to just force builds to make the new mechanic irrelevant OR you're going to get people avoiding them entirely. And that assumes you're going to do a lot of leg-work to modify or create powers that aren't there, currently.

I think possibly making changes to make powers more like rituals and then changing the casting times would probably be closer to what you're trying to accomplish, but it still feels your hamstringing certain classes without a lot of benefit.

malraux · Mar 9, 2010

Belaugured DM said:
First off I allways liked the Vancian magic system as a limiting factor that pays off for having serious magical energies in the long term.

It's important to note that in 4e, arcane/divine powers are not balanced this way.

I understand it's limitations as well however. That being said, I dislike the sameness of the powers system for all classes now. So I got to thinking, what do you guys think of the concept of requiring saving throws vs fort when spells are cast? If a saving throw is failed then the caster must rest before being able to cast again. Kinda a way to represent the magical energies being expended taking a toll on the caster's system.

Bolting a system like that on does just makes playing an arcane character worse than other classes. To make it fair, the arcane character needs some increase in power to balance out his potential loss of all powers.