What is OSR about?

Ourph said:

What you're saying is that the OSR basically gained strength through negativity. I've never seen that. In fact, most of the OSR blogs and messageboards had a few posts/threads about 4e right after it first came out and everybody was talking about it and then dropped the subject to focus on the games that OSR people actually care about.

The OSR is based on people who think the old games are still awesome and who still have fun playing and writing about them.

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The problem is from what I've seen, the OSR is not just about "being positive". Even in the early days of Dragonsfoot there is a lot of put-downs and angry vibes, such as people who are immature enough to use the terms "threetard" and "fouron", use terms like TETSNBN for 3e, etc. I mean, if you think edition wars are bad here, just go to any OSR. (And now there are forums who consider Dragonsfoot "too liberal" for their edition conservatism).

There can be a serious amount of bitterness and mean streak to the OSR at times, which I think corrupts the movement. It's sort of the shadows around the light of playing games that turns me off a bit.

JohnRTroy said:

The problem is from what I've seen, the OSR is not just about "being positive". Even in the early days of Dragonsfoot there is a lot of put-downs and angry vibes, such as people who are immature enough to use the terms "threetard" and "fouron", use terms like TETSNBN for 3e, etc. I mean, if you think edition wars are bad here, just go to any OSR. (And now there are forums who consider Dragonsfoot "too liberal" for their edition conservatism).

There can be a serious amount of bitterness and mean streak to the OSR at times, which I think corrupts the movement. It's sort of the shadows around the light of playing games that turns me off a bit.

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It's a good thing, then, that there are no similar claims about nostalgic grognards with rose-coloured glasses trying to be 14 again for those comments to be a reaction to.......

IME, most OSR boards lock topics related to WotC-D&D, regardless of their spin.

Raven Crowking said:

It's a good thing, then, that there are no similar claims about nostalgic grognards with rose-coloured glasses trying to be 14 again for those comments to be a reaction to.......

IME, most OSR boards lock topics related to WotC-D&D, regardless of their spin.

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Well, if you're addressing my comments, I never used the term nostalgia as a "dirty word", and I believe part of what's just been called the "500 blogger" movement is in part a reflection of that nostalgia. I think there's a knee-jerk defensive reaction to use of that word.

Too many fans of these entertainments want to write polemics explaining in objective terms why their version is superior. If you are the type that tries to say "everything was better" in the old days, including things like the art and desktop publishing of the games, I think the person might not be looking at the core. There is that sort of element I see, and it's okay to critique it a bit, and I think it's important to understand part of the primal psychology of your personal "golden age".

But saying something is based in part on nostalgia is certainly not the same as using terms like 3tard/4on--it would be the equivalent of coming up with a bad name.

And that doesn't mean the new fans get the pass...there's always a tendency to think new is better, and that everybody else is an old "stuck in the past" kind of person. It's important to listen to the wisdom of the elders at times, and understand the difference between bitterness and real, honest, criticism.

Basically, I think the root of all edition wars right now, from old to new fans, is some level of insecurity and a need to see the other version of D&D as "the enemy". If we could eliminate that, I think the general gaming culture would be a lot better. Instead of having separate forums where people throw brickbats at the other guy, it would be nice to be able to group together and discuss our common bonds, and seriously be able to critique styles of play without making personal attacks and without interpreting criticism as personal attacks.

But I have a sad feeling that won't happen.

JohnRTroy said:

The problem is from what I've seen, the OSR is not just about "being positive". Even in the early days of Dragonsfoot there is a lot of put-downs and angry vibes, such as people who are immature enough to use the terms "threetard" and "fouron", use terms like TETSNBN for 3e, etc. I mean, if you think edition wars are bad here, just go to any OSR. (And now there are forums who consider Dragonsfoot "too liberal" for their edition conservatism).

There can be a serious amount of bitterness and mean streak to the OSR at times, which I think corrupts the movement. It's sort of the shadows around the light of playing games that turns me off a bit.

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I won't deny that there are edition-warriors and haters who also esteem (or at least claim to esteem) OS games. But I don't think the "resurgence" or "revival" or "rennaissance" (whatever you want the "R" to mean) is based on that kind of negativity. I don't think we would have seen a new publishing genre develop around a community whose only unifying feature was "Game X sucks". The unifying feature is "Game A rocks!" and the "Game X sucks" aspect is a vocal minority that people tend to pay attention to because they're being provocative and rude.

In fact, a bitter gamer sitting at his keyboard typing about how much 2e or 3e or 4e sucks is, IMO, the antithesis of the OSR. The OSR is about people being excited about OS games, playing OS games, writing about OS games, making new products for OS games and buying the new stuff. If someone is spending all of their time talking about how much 3e or 4e sucks, they are, QED, not talking about the positive aspects of OS games and therefore not part of any kind of "revival".

JohnRTroy said:

But saying something is based in part on nostalgia is certainly not the same as using terms like 3tard/4on

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We both know that it is exactly the same for some people.

It is sad but true that many gamers feel the need to defend not only the games they enjoy, but also the enjoyment they have from those games.

It is a good thing that there are lots of games out there, so that most folks can find something to satisfy their gaming urge, but far too many of us (and probably most of us, at one time or another) wonder (vocally) why anyone would like Game X (as opposed to Game Y, which we like).

All too often, gamers are their own worst enemy.


RC

Ourph said:

"Game X sucks" aspect is a vocal minority that people tend to pay attention to because they're being provocative and rude.

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And, on some boards, because they gain dignatis.


RC

Raven Crowking said:

It's a good thing, then, that there are no similar claims about nostalgic grognards with rose-coloured glasses trying to be 14 again for those comments to be a reaction to.......

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I've been trying to be 14 again ever since I grew old enough to realize how good I had it when I was 14. So... twenty years or so?

Well, maybe 16. Let's face it; I'd be frustrated with having to bum rides off my mom again.

I'm honestly a bit confused on the whole issue of nostalgia and why the OSR (speaking generically) gets so offended by that claim. Just because I don't particularly like old rule systems very much doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a good bit of nostalgia. I've never seen that as a bad thing. But for some reason there's a strong vibe in the OSR that that's not only a terrible thing, but also dreadfully insulting to insinuate. I'd love to have someone explain that posture to me, because frankly, it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Raven Crowking said:

And, on some boards, because they gain dignatis.

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I think you mean rep. Dignitas is specific to Circvs Maximvs, because of the Roman forum theme, but nobody gets dignitas for edition warring at Circvs Maximvs. Edition warriors tend to get insulted right and left for being socially and intellectually bankrupt.

Except in much more colorful language.

cross thread insanity deleted

Hobo said:

But for some reason there's a strong vibe in the OSR that that's not only a terrible thing, but also dreadfully insulting to insinuate. I'd love to have someone explain that posture to me, because frankly, it doesn't make a lick of sense.

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I think the reason that word touches off so many strong reactions is that this...

"The only way to overlook the glaring faults of (insert OS game here) is if you are looking at your experience through rose-colored glasses"

... has been a pretty common edition-warring tactic for many years. Thus, "nostalgia" became a hot-button word even when used non-pejoratively. I, personally, would agree with your analysis that nostalgia can be a positive thing and I have no doubt that nostalgia plays a big part in getting people to pick up their old gaming materials and give them a try again. However, nostalgia is by definition a feeling you have about something from your past. It can't explain ...

a) Why people who pick up OS games they played in the past, have fun with them in the present.
b) Why some gamers never stopped playing OS games and have continuously running games or campaigns that span decades of play.
c) Why a new player who plays an OS game for the first time has fun with it.

So, while there is no doubt in my mind that nostalgia is a boon to the OSR in many ways, I think people who trot it out as the main reason for the OSR are mistaken. Nostalgia alone might tempt someone to pick up an OS game and play it for one session, but if that person continues to play the game or decides to blog about the game or write new adventures and supplements for the game, it's more than just nostalgia at that point, it's a genuine enjoyment of the game that has nothing to do with skewed perceptions or self delusion (which is what the whole "rose-colored glasses" comment is meant to imply).