Hybrid Monk - Hybrid Talent/Flurry of Blows question

RigaMortus2 · Mar 30, 2010

I do not have my books in front of me at the moment, so I don't have the exact wording of things in front of me, so I'm just going from memory. Hopefully ya'll know what I am getting at...

A Hybrid Monk gets Flurry of Blows (as part of their Hybrid Monastic Tradition, or whatever it is called) which allows them to do Flurry of Blows but only when using Monk powers or Monk Paragon powers.

But when you get a Hybrid Talent, you can select Expanded Tradition. The wording is basically, you get everything listed under your Monastic Tradition.

Does this include the ability to use Flurry of Blows on ANY attack (not just Monk-based attacks)?

The wording seems to indicate that you get everything listed under that specific Tradition. Flurry of Blows NORMALLY lets you deal damage after any attack (the monk-only powers limit isn't normally there).

DracoSuave · Mar 31, 2010

RigaMortus2 said:
I do not have my books in front of me at the moment, so I don't have the exact wording of things in front of me, so I'm just going from memory. Hopefully ya'll know what I am getting at...

A Hybrid Monk gets Flurry of Blows (as part of their Hybrid Monastic Tradition, or whatever it is called) which allows them to do Flurry of Blows but only when using Monk powers or Monk Paragon powers.

But when you get a Hybrid Talent, you can select Expanded Tradition. The wording is basically, you get everything listed under your Monastic Tradition.

Does this include the ability to use Flurry of Blows on ANY attack (not just Monk-based attacks)?

The wording seems to indicate that you get everything listed under that specific Tradition. Flurry of Blows NORMALLY lets you deal damage after any attack (the monk-only powers limit isn't normally there).

No.

The hybrid class ability, Monastic Tradition (Hybrid), gives you the flurry of blows ability from that monastic tradition, and then alters it so that it can only trigger off of monk powers. Expanded Tradition gives you the full benefit (which would be the saving throw bonus) but it doesn't give you a second flurry of blows ability--you already have that ability from that specific tradition.

RigaMortus2 · Apr 1, 2010

DracoSuave said:
No.

The hybrid class ability, Monastic Tradition (Hybrid), gives you the flurry of blows ability from that monastic tradition, and then alters it so that it can only trigger off of monk powers. Expanded Tradition gives you the full benefit (which would be the saving throw bonus) but it doesn't give you a second flurry of blows ability--you already have that ability from that specific tradition.

But then, that wouldn't be everything, like the Expanded Tradition feat says. Gaining everything (or every benefit) of the tradition would include being able to make a Flurry of Blows on any attack (not just Monk ones).

DracoSuave · Apr 2, 2010

RigaMortus2 said:
But then, that wouldn't be everything, like the Expanded Tradition feat says. Gaining everything (or every benefit) of the tradition would include being able to make a Flurry of Blows on any attack (not just Monk ones).

Everything is 'Everything listed under that tradition.'

You've already got one thing from that tradition--the Flurry of Blows ability. It is -explicitly- described as from that tradition. So you already get it. You cannot get it twice.

That same ability then modifies it so you can't use it with non-monk abilities.

You -might- have a point if it also took away the Monastic Tradition (Hybrid) class feature. However, as you still have it, it is still active, and its restriction therefore still kicks in.

Think of it this way; one of your class features is: 'Flurry of blows from your Monastic Tradition can only be used with monk powers.' It doesn't exactly matter if something else gives it to you from that tradition.

RigaMortus2 · Apr 2, 2010

I see what you are saying, but the talent gives you full use of the flurry of blows, so there is a difference. Couldn't it be argued that you get both, one with the restriction and one w/o? In which case, you'd use the FoB w/o the restriction.

This seems akin to the Cleric multiclass feat that grants Healing Word 1/day, but in the descritpion of Healing Word it says you can use it 2/encounter. So there is a disparity between the two.

W/o the Hybrid Feat you get FoB w/ a restriction. W/ the Hybrid Feat, you get 'Everything listed under that tradition' which also includes FoB, but w/o the restriction.

DracoSuave · Apr 3, 2010

RigaMortus2 said:
I see what you are saying, but the talent gives you full use of the flurry of blows, so there is a difference. Couldn't it be argued that you get both, one with the restriction and one w/o? In which case, you'd use the FoB w/o the restriction.

This seems akin to the Cleric multiclass feat that grants Healing Word 1/day, but in the descritpion of Healing Word it says you can use it 2/encounter. So there is a disparity between the two.

W/o the Hybrid Feat you get FoB w/ a restriction. W/ the Hybrid Feat, you get 'Everything listed under that tradition' which also includes FoB, but w/o the restriction.

"You Gain all the features associated with your tradition" is not the same phrase as "Everything listed under that tradition" or "Without restriction."

You already have Flurry of Blows, and you have a restriction from your hybrid feature. No matter how many times you get a power '_________ Flurry of Blows', so long as it is from your Monastic Tradition, it will -always- have the hybrid restriction upon it.

So let's say you're a Centered Breath Hybrid Monk.

Monastic Tradition (Hybrid) gives you Centered Breath Flurry of Blows. It doesn't give you a power named 'Centered Breath Flurry of Blows (hybrid).' It is that power. But what it does is it restricts the use of Centered Breath Flurry of Blows.

So, if you get Centered Breath Flurry of Blows from a different source, that doesn't remove the restriction on the power Centered Breath Flurry of Blows. You still have the restriction, it still applies.

The thing to remember is that the power never changes, it is ALWAYS written exactly as it reads in the PHB3. It's the -class feature- that restricts its use, and nothing in Expanded Tradition makes the class feature go away.