These are not stories!

Over the course of scanning the numerous 'stories' in these forums, I have come to the conclusion that most of the people here dont understand the meaning of the word story.

Yes, I know that these are simply translations of DnD games into text, and im sure that for those involved in the campaigns are the ones getting the most out of the Story Hours. However, for those of us who are looking for a good, entertaining read, there is sadly not much to be found.

For a start, nearly every Story hour writer insists on defining the history and personality of the characters involved before the story even begins. While this does enable the players to have input, it makes for boring reading. For a party with 4 characters, theres 4 pages of preliminary reading that must be done before anything exciting begins to happen.

The same applies to the history/geography/politics of the campaign setting. For the stories to actually be stories all the above mentioned aspects should be defined between the beginning and ending of the story. The characters and the world they live in should be fleshed out as the story progresses and not simply 'defined' beforehand.

You will not find any book written by a sane person that sets out the character out of the context of the storyline. This is for the simple reason that as the reader learns more about the characters intent and past they will be drawn in. It is like a clean slate for the reader, and as the story progresses, the different characters are built up in the readers mind. But if you set about revealing the character in full at the beginning of the story then there is no suspense, no real motive to continue reading.

Another thing I have noticed, is that even after wading through endless pages of uninteresting garbage, the story is nearly always told in a linear form, and thus it takes several pages to get to the good stuff.

Why do you all (sorry about the generalisation) insist on doing this? The key rule to any short story is to start off with the action to draw in the readers and then introduce the plot and intrigue to keep them reading.

For example; instead of narrating the clerics instructions from the high priest, first tell of his entrance into the catacombs and his fight against the cultists. Then relate it back to the instructions he was given by the church etc. and whether he has suceeded in his mission. This way the reader will be drawn in as our hero gets down into the gritty action.

Im sorry if those post sounded a bit harsh. I know that the reason for the untraditional method of storytelling is due to the fact that you are for the most part narrating a DnD game. But I dont see that as any reason for not making it interesting and exciting by telling a proper tale.

For people uninvolved in your campaign, it is much more interesting and enjoyable to read the story as a story, rather than as unassembled ideas.

The best example of a proper story I have seen is The Ruined Ones Scarred Lands story hour. This totally sucked me in and kept me reading because it was set out nicely (with different colours for dialogue) and did not waste time getting into the story with character profiles etc.

I believe if everyone followed this advice the quality of the Story hour forums would be greatly improved.

Thankyou

Over the course of reading your post, I have come to the conclusion that you're being a hostile, inflammatory jerk. Starting a "helpful suggestion"/criticism thread with a blanket insult is perhaps the most ill-advised thing you can do. Do you realize how deeply you're going to offend people with this post? Helpful criticism might be useful, but referencing "endless pages of uninteresting garbage" is not.

Look, if it isn't obvious, most of these are not stories in the tradional sense. They are not books. The are gaming campaigns, often brilliant ones, and they are works in progress written by people who are generally exercising their prose skills for the first time. They're fun. They're exciting. But most folks aren't trying to be Hemingway.

We'd love it if you stayed, poked around, found threads you enjoy and follow them regularly. I'd love it even more if you started your own for your Hextor campaign and proved your talent to the community. But if this doesn't work for you, you're probably better off at your local library. Coming here and saying that there "isn't much to be found" when looking for a good entertaining read isn't just rude, it's blatantly incorrect. There are more than a half dozen threads that I consider much better than most fantasy novels I own.

You give some decent advice sandwiched between the petty jibes. Nevertheless, the impression people will get from reading your post is that you're less interested in helping people than you are excited to be deliberately insulting folks who put hundreds of hours into something that you get for free. I find that disappointing, and I hope you'll consider rephrasing your post to be less combative.

I won't close this right now, partially because I think other authors and story hour fans may want to offer their opinions. I will remind folks that no matter how upset you may be, the normal propriety rules of EN World apply. No swearing, no personal insults. It's just possible that this may turn into a constructive dialogue. Let's find out.

I'm not angry at this post. Just very sad that someone would take that much time out of their day to put down people that work hard at entertaining those that wish to be entertained. We don't ask you to read our story hours if you're not interested. If you'd like to offer actual constructive feedback, I'm sure you'd find some receptive readers. But as PC said, the blanket statements made in your post are certainly not constructive. I'd probably go as far as to say this post was a troll, that or you really don't know what this forum is about.

Let me outline some general information for you:

1) The story hours contained here don't generally start from the beginning. Thus your complaint about the character bios and history is frivolous. Without that background information you would never know how the characters got to the point they are in the story hour. Not to mention the story hour author would be taking many liberties if he/she were to write the background throughout the story since most of the content would not fit with what is actually happening at the time.

2) These are linear because that is the way a DnD game is played. Your 'suggestion' to launch straight into action then follow up with plot development would only last for the first session post. After which all that would follow would be linear progression because most story hour authors are writing from successive sessions. They don't know what is going to happen next, the session hasn't even been played. Another point is that many authors are writing what amounts to a journal of their campaign in story format. Journals are linear by nature. X happened which led to Y which caused Z.

3) What you consider unexciting others here wait for with baited breath. You are entitled to your opinion, but I for one would appreciate it if you voiced it elsewhere.

Your generalizations are insulting and your 'constructive critisism' is nothing more than thinly veiled contempt for the hard work we authors have put into this form of literature. If you'd like to give us feedback please put more consideration into the form of work you are critiquing. You can't judge a fictional novel by the same guidelines that you would judge poetry, don't try to fit the story hours here into the same kind of narrow perception.

Baited Breath

Papa_Laz,

I look forward to your Story Hour. It sounds like you are an expert and really know what you're doing, not to mention what we should be doing.

I look forward to reading your Story Hour (before the rights are bought for a major motion picture, of course) and seeing "how it's done".

I think you make an excellent point. We Story Hour authors simply do not devote enough time and effort to our write-ups. Before you inspired me, I felt that my time was better spent creating an exciting and fun game for my players. Thank you for setting me straight.

By the way, you might want to check out www.rpg.net. Unlike these boards, they welcome inflamatory posts and people who post before thinking. Have fun.

Here, here!

Good statements, Piratecat. I'm glad you replied to this thread before I saw it, as I might not have been able to comment as calmly as you were.

papa_laz, Piratecat is absolutely right. I don't know about other Story Hour writers, but I don't see this forum as an area to write a novel, but some place where I can exercise my creative muscles and get used to the discipline of sitting down in front of a keyboard and typing 2-3 pages a day. I applaud the efforts of all the aspiring writers here - they show bravery and talent simply in their willingness to share their work. This is not an easy thing for people to do, and the fastest way to kill a young writer's dreams is to dismiss their work out of hand. Offer constructive criticism, not degrading insults. Or show restraint and don't comment at all.

In a lot of cases, I appreciate the character backgrounds at the beginning of the stories. A D&D game is going to skip a lot of the character development stage you find present in a novel, simply because the DM and players want to get into the action and play, not spend hours worrying about the exact sequence of events that got their characters involved in the story. Some threads start in the middle of an ongoing campaign and have already passed by the defining moments in a character's career. Besides, I have quite a few fantasy novels on my shelf where the first page consists of one paragraph blurbs describing the characters.

I don't come to the Story Hour boards looking for a good novel to read, and I don't expect the threads to follow the same pattern as a published novel or story - I come to check out the fascinating characters people have developed and to see how other people are playing the game. Sometimes my goal is to find interesting ideas to "borrow" for my own game. The fact that so many of the threads are entertaining reads is a bonus as far as I'm concerned. Hats off to the many creative talents, far too numerous to list here, that keep me coming back over and over again.

I'll try and field this one:

My friend, the story hour forum is full of a unique form of fiction that I like to call campaign journals. These are not short stories or novels in the strictest sense, becasue that is not what a large portion of the audience wants.

Let me give you an example, using Piratecat's story hour:

To put it succinctly, Piratecat's DMing skills are among the best. This is not because I say so, or Bob down the street says so, this is because the RPGA has recognized him time and again as one of the best DM's in the organization.

Because of this, there are a lot of people out there, including me, who like to see how he handles his particular campaign. Therefore, I don't mind that he uses gamespeak for certain things - in fact I like it, because I, and many others, want to see the game mechanics in action.


Now, having said that, there are several story hours that do follow the standard story conventions: For example, aside from the short story dramatis personae that he provides at the beginning, ForceUser's Vietnamese Story Hour is a standard follow the plot story, and is magnificent in it's own right, and Sepulchrave's series of story hours are nothing short of briliant, using dialogue, action, and intricate plotlines to pull in the reader. And (because this post would not be complete without a plug for my own story hour), the Small Beginnings story hour, by myself and D'Shai, has - get this - no direct exposition. We like to think of it as a fantasy adventure serial.

My point is that there is a ton of good material in this forum, whether or not you realize it. Not all of it may tickle your fancy, but that doesn't make it any less valid as a form of fiction.

So please, stick around and check out some more of the story hours, you might be more than a bit surprised at what you find.

Ack!! Hey papa_laz, I'm glad you like my Story Hour and all, but please don't attack these other guys and then praise me. That's not exactly the kind of publicity I want starting off.

Everybody has different styles of writing, and everyone is entitled to want to read different story hours. I myself read several of the story hours on this forum avidly, and the styles differ dramatically. I think the other guys have outlined pretty good responses, so I won't rehash what they've said.

That being said, I just want my story hour to stand on its own merit. Not attract attention by demeaning all of its friendly rivals.

Jeez...

IMHO, this thread was started just to see if a flame war could be ingited. Everybody knows what these story hours are, and everybody knows some of the most passionate EN Boarders post/read here regularly.

Sorry, we're not biting.

Re: Baited Breath

Bearing in mind that this is amatuer fiction, I must say that I have actually been quite impressed with the quality of the writing on this forum. Admittedly, the stories are often transcripts of peoples games, but I have found nearly all of them more interesting that the typical "let me tell you about my character" stories that I hear off the top of peoples head at conventions and get-togethers.

So let me simply say that I appreciate everyone's efforts here, and someday, SOMEDAY, I shall find time to work my way through all of them. Of course, I'll probably be retired by then, but that's beside the point. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to write for my enjoyment. I hope that someday I will find the time and self-discipline to return the favor.

. . . . . . . -- Eric

PS -- Gospog: Do you feel that the slap at another site added to the quality of your post? If not, would you mind reconsidering its inclusion?

Several weeks (months? Time passes strangely after child #2) ago I posted a small poll to attempt to get some sense of what people who read the story hours looked for in a good one. Although the response was smaller than I hoped, there was a fairly clear consensus that most people wanted, not straight story, but a balance between "story" style and a recognition of game elements, although there was some small disagreement over where the ideal balance was.

That poll (and the responders to this thread) would suggest that we see the story hour as a separate genre from fantasy fiction, with its own considerations of excellence and suitability. Like all living genres, there is ample flexibility for a variety of approaches within a few general guidelines. One central guideline, I believe, is that a reader should be able to gain some sense of the game from her or his reading. If gaining that "sense of the game" requires character backgrounds, setting exposition, occasional narratorial intrusions, and lapses in pacing, then so be it.

I read several story hours and have sampled many more; I enjoy most of them. I don't try to compare them to novels, because they aren't novels. Most of us recognize that a good novel and a good roleplaying plot are very different critters, although both are enjoyable.

Just my 2 cents.