companies staying away from rpg gamers

Sammael · Jun 22, 2010

How does that work for a multi-billion property like the Transformers, which often has varying continuities* within the same product lines? Arguably, the Transformers has it all: movies, TV shows, webizodes, toys, comics, conventions, board games, computer games... and yet, going by the above definition, that would not be transmedia. Which seems highly suspect to me.

(*except for Takara's merged continuity, which makes no sense whatsoever)

UngainlyTitan · Jun 22, 2010

Dausuul said:
The problem here is Sturgeon's Law:

STURGEON'S LAW: 90% of everything is crap.

With any kind of new media property, you're rolling the dice. Nine times out of ten, it turns out to be crap. All of the big media companies understand this and have a system for handling it; new properties are given various kinds of trial runs, and if they don't pan out, they get dumped before they have a chance to cost major money. Usually.

But if you're going to produce a live-action TV show or cartoon with the intent of making it the "core" for D&D... you're harnessing the fate of a tested and successful (if niche) property to one of those untested unknowns. Think now: Do you really want the fate of D&D entrusted to what might, and in fact probably would, turn out to be a repeat of the 2000 "Dungeons and Dragons" movie?

D&D has spun off tie-ins in other media throughout its existence, with varying degrees of success. I dare say if one of them was a big hit, Hasbro would jump on it and make it bigger, and it might end up eclipsing the original game, in the same way that the Dragonlance novels ended up eclipsing the tabletop modules on which they were based. But it's not something you can really plan.

Agreed, if you are going to expand D&D into other media, do a web series initially and look at doing mini series based on the more successful books.
Icewind Dale the mini series or Dragonlance.
If they are successful, try an original one and then work from there.
You would have to try a lot of stuff to see what is successful and that needs pots of money. More than WoTC could afford, Hasbro would have to back this.
The problem then is, is that the most useful use of pots of hasbro money?

Mark · Jun 22, 2010

fanboy2000 said:
Sammael, I agree that WotC shouldn't let long time fans of D&D go.

This is always a question of either WotC catering to what long time fans like or converting them to what WotC decides to produce. WotC could probably continue to attract revenue from fans of all stripes if they continued to support all editions. The alternative is to attract enough new fans to replace the old ones that contiue playing older editions or who move on to other game systems from other companies.

Dausuul · Jun 22, 2010

Sammael said:
How does that work for a multi-billion property like the Transformers, which often has varying continuities* within the same product lines? Arguably, the Transformers has it all: movies, TV shows, webizodes, toys, comics, conventions, board games, computer games... and yet, going by the above definition, that would not be transmedia. Which seems highly suspect to me.

(except for Takara's merged continuity, which makes no sense whatsoever)

As far as I can tell, transmedia does not lend itself to that kind of giant empire. If the goal of transmedia is to have everything be part of a single canonical continuity, then a single team has to manage that entire continuity, which necessarily limits how big it can be. Transmedia properties would actually be smaller than tie-in empires.

Uder · Jun 22, 2010

This is the second topic I've noticed lately that shines a light into the uglier side of online RPG fandom. Again, the reaction is to be as expected... "Hssssssss."

Second - it's interesting to note that the original premise (which I don't entirely agree with in this case, but did in the other) in both could not be stated here, but had to be blogged. Fan message boards in general don't handle introspection well. Hostility about "outsiders*" stating the obvious isn't as bad here as in video game circles, but I see some reasonable people getting unreasonably defensive in both topics.

Third, how old is the transmedia buzzword/trend/fad? Does it work on my AOL or do I have to Twatter it?

* IMO These are probably not outsiders - just insiders that don't want to be banned from their favorite communities for their opinions.

GMSkarka · Jun 22, 2010

Sammael said:
How does that work for a multi-billion property like the Transformers, which often has varying continuities* within the same product lines?

Multiple continuities are very much a part of transmedia -- but the key is that the continuities are generated and planned centrally, not licensed out to third parties.

If you want to read more about the topic, check out these two articles on the blog of Henry Jenkins (author of "Convergence Culture", professor of communications and cinematic art at USC, and former director of MIT's Comparative Media Studies Program):

Revenge of the Origami Unicorn, Part 1 and

Revenge of the Origami Unicorn, Part 2

..where he talks about the seven principles of transmedia storytelling. He talks about multiple continuties in #3, Continuity vs. Multiplicity.

OK, I promise -- no more threaddrift from me on this issue. If you want more info on Transmedia check Jenkins out, and read the articles on my blog posted way back at the beginning of this thread.

Ace · Jun 22, 2010

I wrote a couple of lengthy and somewhat irritable replies under my 5 Stone Games moniker at the link

I found the article more than a bit insulting actually, even ignoring the fact that role playing game players are not a monolithic group the article smacked of sour grapes to me. These people didn't do what I wanted so what a bunch of meanies they are.

Well welcome to real life, anyone who has ever worked in marketing can tell you, the customer sometimes does what ever the heck they want, not what you want.

pawsplay · Jun 22, 2010

GMSkarka said:
Erik, you're missing the point so spectacularly, its stunning.

Like it or not, Malcolm's experience outside of the game industry mirrors my recent experiences as well, with the various transmedia folks I've been dealing with.

Places like ENWorld and RPGNow may not be places they pay attention to, but they ARE the sort of places that they easily find when doing research into the community. Research that they DO undertake, because it seems a no-brainer that the RPG community is a perfect fit to be early adopters/influencers for a lot of where online entertainment is headed.

Saying that the negative fan segment is more vocal than the positive segment, and that negativity drives away the people and businesses who might be able to elevate the profile of gaming and take it into the future is not "disrespectful of the people paying our salaries" or "blaming the customer."

It simply is saying that we're letting our own worst elements kill the chances we have of having our hobby embraced, growing and evolving with the times, instead of being aimed at an ever-shrinking rump of nostalgia-legacy users.

I'm very happy that Paizo is doing well, and that PaizoCon has been a success for you. But wrapping yourself in the flag of "I'm defending the socially awkward from the jerks" is unwarranted. You're piling on to right a wrong that isn't being committed.

I think you are missing the point. All this so-called negativity and cynicism is what I consider self-policing and the maturation of a relatively young hobby. If RPGs are to go anywhere, RPG creators must embrace creativity, aesthetics, and the community. Treating RPGs as a commodity is a quick route to discovering that, yes, in fact, crappy cell phone games based on movies based on video games will probably make more money than the best RPG book ever written. But this is a gaming site, and it's simply ridiculous to complain about the thing that it is. RPGs are RPGs.

It's like complaining opera would be great if it weren't for all the negativity and cynicism coming from opera fans, that opera could be the center of the pop music universe if opera producers just understood basic marketing. It's like saying movies could really take off if people like Roger Ebert would stop criticizing things and warning people away from inferior opuses. It's like selling motorcycles and kvetching that you can't sell enough Eddie Bauer leathers because biking's image is being ruined by Hell's Angels and a dying, nostalgic breed of biker.

pawsplay · Jun 22, 2010

GMSkarka said:
Actually, it's an example of *early attempts* at transmedia, but not really representative, or successful.

A better current example would be HEROES -- where you had a show, webisodes, comics (online and printed), flash games, etc. -- which weren't *required* for you to follow the main storyline, but any elements that you chose to follow would enhance the overall experience.

Transmedia is storytelling across multiple forms of media in order to have a wide array of entry points by which consumers can interact with a particular property.

It's also a threadjack for this discussion, so I'll stop.

So basically, you are talking about WEG's Star Wars RPG, which was a huge success for the RPG industry and also for Lucasfilm's EU segment.

Again, I think it's more likely that marketing is being cynical, rather than RPG players. Gamers like things that are... good.

D'karr · Jun 22, 2010

pawsplay said:
It's like saying movies could really take off if people like Roger Ebert would stop criticizing things and warning people away from inferior opuses.

Interestingly enough, almost any movie recommended by Ebert, I skip at the theater. The ones he calls clunkers are the ones that I go see. I've been disappointed with this system less than a dozen times.

Knowing your tastes is usually important when you decided to "take" recommendations from others, whether professional "critics" or angry interweb fans.