What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

amerigoV · Jul 15, 2010

Pseudonym said:
This assumes they want customers like you back.

Perhaps a flippant comment, but there is a kernel of truth in my opinion. 3rd edition was about bring us old timers back into the fold. They fixed tons of broken stuff from older editions and made the bucks repacking everything from 1st and 2nd edition ("Return to" and "Expedition to", Fiend Folio, etc). I am not complaining - I happily gobbled this stuff up as I left the Fold fairly early in 2e.

4e is not about us old timers, its about the kids and getting new generations into the brand. If you are a Star Wars fan of old - 4e is Episode I from Star Wars. Jar Jar was not meant for you, it was meant for a new generation of fans. An just like the Star Wars fans went back to see Episode II and cringe at the half-assed attempt at a love story (which really cut into the action scenes), you will go back to give 5e a try when it comes out. Again, you may not stick to it, but you will buy the core and come into the Holographic Bulletin Boards and complain, but they will have the initial surge of money to carry them through to 6e.

And if Lucas comes out with Episode 7, you will go and watch it and you will buy 6e D&D.

So for me, what keeps me away is that there is really nothing innovative for 4e. Yes, things are different. But nothing that gets the blood flowing. I mentioned in another thread that moving to 4e from 3.5 is like upgrading from Office 2003 to 2007 - some interesting new features but they moved all my buttons around. Ok, but I am not running out to Best Buy to purchase an upgrade. (Office 2010 is here no? Not sure, and I will not really care until it shows up on some future computer that I will own).

The OP mentioned Savage Worlds. That is my go-to these days. Why? Many reasons, but one is that when I buy a SW book it is bursting with new ideas (Deadlands, Weird War II, Realms of Cthulu, Day after Ragnorak....). When I buy a 4e book, it generally is "yet another Fighter" or "the new and improved Beholder". I will admit that I will get Darksun as I never got it on the original go around (po' college boy back then). So that is "new to me", but not "new to everyone."

So, just like the Star Wars Lemming that I am, I will probably buy 5e and hope that it is not another Episode I. And if Eps I is on the tube when I am flipping through the channels, I'll watch it just like I'll play 4e if that is what a group is playing.

Runestar · Jul 15, 2010

pawsplay said:
History says otherwise.

You mean like what they did with 3.5e?

Thornir Alekeg · Jul 15, 2010

For the most part, I am skeptical that anything realistic could bring the disenfranchised back. From what I have seen, most of the people that have become disenfranchised with WotC, as opposed to somebody who just feels 4e isn't the game for them, would not likely accept any kind of olive branch. They would see almost any gesture short of giving away lots of stuff for free as a money grab or some other negatively motivated ploy.

pawsplay · Jul 15, 2010

Runestar said:
You mean like what they did with 3.5e?

I was thinking more along the lines of the decade in which I did not play AD&D, along with many others who left D&D a while back and only returned when 3e came out.

IronWolf · Jul 15, 2010

innerdude said:
2. Bring back PDFs.

I like having PDFs available, but with my preferred game (not WotC 4th edition) having them readily available, I don't really need WotC to produce PDFs as I don't even purchase their hardback books these days.

innerdude said:
3. Make DDI what you said it would be.

The character builder is useless to me, because I don't play 4e. But if you were to put a working tabletop system into play, and charge the small premium for it? Now we're talking. DDI as it currently stands has zero interest to me.

I have working character generators for my system of choice via PCGen if I want free or Hero Lab if I want a paid option. So no real need for a character builder.

MapTool works great for a VTT - anyone waiting on WotC to put one out should take some time to try it and view the video tutorials. It is a great tool and supports a lot of systems through various frameworks. And no subscription fee.

innerdude said:
4. Incentives to play that DON'T include living FR, or D&D game days, or whatever RPGA schlock you're hocking.

I think they've been doing well with their encounters. I don't play 4th edition as noted before, but these bite sized chunks of gaming are a great way to get more people playing. So I think WotC is doing fine with that.

innerdude said:
Give me a 25 percent discount coupon on any three core rulebooks. Give me an online coupon code for any purchases of $50 or more of my choice. Give me some incentive to come back to you, and see you as something other than a faceless corporate entity out to make a buck.

My system of choice offers discounts to subscribers of any of their product lines, so I don't really need to wait on WotC for that either.

Definitely not trying to pick on you - just using your examples of how there is already a lot of this stuff out there from other gaming companies that make a great product. So I really don't feel a need to have WotC gain me back as the void has already been filled - without WotC.

pogre said:
I'm not "disenchanted" or angry at Wizards in the least, but I no longer play 4e. ....

I think that WOTC understood full well they would lose some folks. They had to make the decisions they felt were best for the company. I cannot begrudge them that. I hope 4th continues to be a big success for them.

Exactly. I think WotC knew they would lose some people with 4th edition but that some of us simply weren't the target audience and we were acceptable losses. It seems there are lots of people playing 4th edition still and WotC seems to be doing okay all things said and done. I am fine with that and not angry with them.

Luckily another company stepped up to fill the void for me and I am more than satisfied with their product and company and they provide me a lot of things WotC doesn't. So it's really sort of a win-win.

Philotomy Jurament · Jul 15, 2010

The fact is that currently WotC is irrelevant to my D&D game. I'm not mad at them or disappointed with them; I just don't care about them. My tastes in D&D run in a different direction than WotC has been going, and I don't expect that to change.

Probably the easiest thing WotC could do to turn me into a customer is start selling PDFs of out-of-print material. I already own most of what I want, but there are a few things I'd pick up. And I know there's demand from others who play the out-of-print editions, too.

Another possibility is releasing new material for older editions. I don't think that's "splitting the market," because I think the market is already split. It would be entering into a portion of the market that already exists and that they're not currently servicing. However, the market for older edition adventures may not be big enough for them to worry about. That's a business decision they'd have to make. I don't expect this to happen, I'm just throwing it out as a possibility. Another possibility (especially if they deem the older edition market to be too small to devote resources to) would be to license the D&D trademark to a different company that puts out adventures and such for the older editions. That way WotC keeps their development resources focused on their current game, benefits from license fees in a market they're not otherwise tapping and is too small to worry about, directly, and the separate company would get the benefit of releasing official AD&D material under license, which would be a big publicity/marketing boon.

Steel_Wind · Jul 15, 2010

For starters?

Well, for one, they could try. And then maybe have the brand manager show up on ENWorld and say hi?

But we've been down that road already a few months back and she doesn't seem to be interested in that approach.
I infer that WotC prefers to control the message and manage the delete key.

AngryMojo · Jul 15, 2010

IronWolf said:
Luckily another company stepped up to fill the void for me and I am more than satisfied with their product and company and they provide me a lot of things WotC doesn't. So it's really sort of a win-win.

This is how I see it. With the dissolving of a current OGL, other companies have had to step up to the plate with their design, and we're seeing some really top-notch products being released. Companies aren't obsessed with shoehorning everything into the d20 mold, and by making their products stand on their own we're seeing the rise and popularization of things like WFRP, Dresden Files, DC Adventures officially dropping anything OGL that's just baggage, and the like. Not to mention Paizo is doing a real bang-up job with Pathfinder.
It's easy to remember the OGL days with rose-covered glasses, but I distinctly remember seeing the huge glut of absolute garbage that was released under the d20 label. Yes, there was some good third party d20 material, but for every gem there was a bucket of crap. I remember the product in my store that the owners ordered, hoping it would be gold, sit on the shelves for years. They had books discounted to a dollar, and the product still wouldn't move.
The OGL was a good thing for a while, but I think it ran it's course. We got some good stuff out of it, but it needed to go away.

pawsplay · Jul 15, 2010

AngryMojo said:
Companies aren't obsessed with shoehorning everything into the d20 mold, and by making their products stand on their own we're seeing the rise and popularization of things like WFRP, Dresden Files, DC Adventures officially dropping anything OGL that's just baggage, and the like. Not to mention Paizo is doing a real bang-up job with Pathfinder...

The OGL was a good thing for a while, but I think it ran it's course. We got some good stuff out of it, but it needed to go away.

You seem a little confused. Pathfinder and DC Adventures are both OGL products.

AngryMojo · Jul 15, 2010

pawsplay said:
You seem a little confused. Pathfinder and DC Adventures are both OGL products.

And without 4e and the decision not to keep the OGL going, neither would be around. The developers for DC Adventures have specifically stated that they've dropped any baggage from the d20 system that is only there to make it d20. There's no need to identify with the system anymore, so they can move on with their design.