What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

AngryMojo said:

And without 4e and the decision not to keep the OGL going, neither would be around. The developers for DC Adventures have specifically stated that they've dropped any baggage from the d20 system that is only there to make it d20. There's no need to identify with the system anymore, so they can move on with their design.

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Mutants & Masterminds never was d20-licensed. That decision was made before the first edition ever saw print.

What do you mean about the OGL dissolving, and what do you mean about it running its course, if you like DCA and Pathfinder?

Although I'm certainly not a big consumer by any means, I don't know if it'd be easy to get my money again. I don't like the direction they're headed- towards a game where it's more explosions and powers and races and settings all at a breakneck speed, all clockwork and crunch and flavorless mechanics. D&D as a game is veering towards being a combat simulator first and foremost, which just isn't the way I like to play the game. Some people love it, and that's really cool, but I'm not a big fan.

With the free retroclones and the OSR, there's really no reason why I'd buy anything that WoTC puts out. I have my old gaming books, I have message boards, there's really nothing they try and sell me that me or my peers can't produce for free.

pawsplay said:

Mutants & Masterminds never was d20-licensed. That decision was made before the first edition ever saw print.

What do you mean about the OGL dissolving, and what do you mean about it running its course, if you like DCA and Pathfinder?

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Mutants and Masterminds was certainly a d20 product, albeit a heavily modified one. If it wasn't for the OGL and the development of the d20 system, it never would have seen the light of day. Read the design articles Green Ronin has on their website about it. There's an entire thing about no longer referring to feats as such, and changing their role in the game. Even without the d20 logo on the books, M&M was a d20 product, and Green Ronin would have been foolish to keep a popular brand completely out of their books.
As for Pathfinder, it's a good product. If 4e wasn't such a divergence from 3e, and if 4e had the same OGL as 3e, I highly doubt the fellows down at Paizo would have made Pathfinder, instead making more modules for the existing, current system.
The OGL was revolutionary when it came out, but like all revolutions, it lost steam and eventually petered out. It was a good thing, but it's done and it had it's time.

The only really meaningful thing they could do would be rereleasing older material by pdf and opening up all earlier edition content. An online SRD of every single 3.5e book ever published would see a lot of use.

In theory they could change personnel and release a new version of the game that fit my needs, but that's quite unrealistic.

I wouldn't say I'm specifically disenchanted with WotC - I still buy far too many of their Magic cards, for one thing; and as a company they do a decent job of promoting the D+D brand in its current iteration and keeping it "out there".

But - and of course there's a but - they could still win me back as a *D+D brand* customer by simply releasing new material for old editions e.g. 0e-1e to which they already own the rights; particularly adventures. And by continuing the minis line as a D+D accessory (I bought lots of minis for use in D+D but never played the minis game they were designed for), but with non-random box contents and at a reasonable price.

Lan-"if WotC announced at GenCon '11 they were re-releasing 1e in printed form they'd never get me out of their booth"-efan

AngryMojo said:

As for Pathfinder, it's a good product. If 4e wasn't such a divergence from 3e, and if 4e had the same OGL as 3e, I highly doubt the fellows down at Paizo would have made Pathfinder, instead making more modules for the existing, current system.
The OGL was revolutionary when it came out, but like all revolutions, it lost steam and eventually petered out. It was a good thing, but it's done and it had it's time.

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I think what pawsplay is getting at is that the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game was released under the OGL.

IronWolf said:

I think what pawsplay is getting at is that the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game was released under the OGL.

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I know. What I'm getting at is it wasn't released under the OGL while WotC was making d20 books, the heyday of the OGL. I really don't think Pathfinder would have the steam it does if there was an OGL for 4e in the same way.

Thornir Alekeg said:

For the most part, I am skeptical that anything realistic could bring the disenfranchised back. From what I have seen, most of the people that have become disenfranchised with WotC, as opposed to somebody who just feels 4e isn't the game for them, would not likely accept any kind of olive branch. They would see almost any gesture short of giving away lots of stuff for free as a money grab or some other negatively motivated ploy.

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I'm probably somewhere in the middle of 'disenfranchised' and 'feeling 4E isn't the game for me'.
Bring me back in the fold is fairly easy. Make or sell something I want.

Philotomy Jurament said:

The fact is that currently WotC is irrelevant to my D&D game. I'm not mad at them or disappointed with them; I just don't care about them. My tastes in D&D run in a different direction than WotC has been going, and I don't expect that to change.

Probably the easiest thing WotC could do to turn me into a customer is start selling PDFs of out-of-print material. I already own most of what I want, but there are a few things I'd pick up. And I know there's demand from others who play the out-of-print editions, too.

Another possibility is releasing new material for older editions. I don't think that's "splitting the market," because I think the market is already split. It would be entering into a portion of the market that already exists and that they're not currently servicing. However, the market for older edition adventures may not be big enough for them to worry about. That's a business decision they'd have to maket. I don't expect this to happen, I'm just throwing it out as a possibility. Another possibility (especially if they deem the older edition market to be too small to devote resources to) would be to license the D&D trademark to a different company that puts out adventures and such for the older editions. That way WotC keeps their development resources focused on their current game, benefits from license fees in a market they're not otherwise tapping and is too small to worry about, directly, and the separate company would get the benefit of releasing official AD&D material under license, which would be a big publicity/marketing boon.

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PDF's, release of limited runs, new material. You ask so much.

Really though if they did a limited run release of old stuff, I would bet there would be a surge in purchases.

If they updated the DDI to include older editions, yup I would be sitting there sending them money to use their CB.
I used it building a 4E character I played and really loved it.

Steel_Wind said:

For starters?

Well, for one, they could try. And then maybe have the brand manager show up on ENWorld and say hi?

But we've been down that road already a few months back and she doesn't seem to be interested in that approach.
I infer that WotC prefers to control the message and manage the delete key.

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It could also be the fact how many times did we rake Scott over the coals around here for stuff. Could it be our own olive branch is a wee bit rotten.


So really to get my money:
1. PDF's not so important as I have most I want. But would help in filling out some holes I have. And it would generate the most good will throughout the community.

2. Older Edition Character Builders. Heck they could contract it out if they wanted to, with the stipulation that it must be done through DDI. I bet many of us Non-4E'ers would jump on the bandwagon to get it. And once you have us, who is to say we don't stick around and maybe try out that new fangled 4E thing the kids are playing these days. It's a one time cost with possible huge rewards.
I disagree with starting with 2E. I would start with the 3.0E/3.5E Books.
Why you ask, simple you have the greatest number of players in that demographic that are computer literate and more likely to have a laptop at the table. This is also the same demographic that would have to be won over with the most return of investment possible.
To those that say we have PCGEN or others of the free ones, I say you have to enter all the datasets on your own. And lord help you if you get caught typing it all out and sharing the dataset. Your average player is lazy, WotC needs to take advantage of that fact.

3. Classic Limited Reprints - Each year select an edition, reprint the core as a single mega book. (include errata) This run would not be of 3.0E/3.5E. Reason being I don't consider that Classic D&D and it would be counter productive to the 4E line, while the Basic/1E/2E lines would fall more into nostalgic buys for the occasional game with or for folks wanting to replace their aging books.

That's my two coppers on the matter.
You have to show WotC there is some profit to be made if you want them to do something.

AngryMojo said:

Mutants and Masterminds was certainly a d20 product, albeit a heavily modified one. If it wasn't for the OGL and the development of the d20 system, it never would have seen the light of day. ... The OGL was revolutionary when it came out, but like all revolutions, it lost steam and eventually petered out. It was a good thing, but it's done and it had it's time.

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I just don't understand what you're saying, and I suspect it's because you're not making logical sense. DCA is a continuation of the OGL "revolution," it is an OGL game, based on an OGL game, and still has an OGL declaration.

If by "petering out" you mean the OGL is no longer a force in gaming, you are incorrect. DC Adventures is an OGL game with a major license and is a continuation of a thriving M&M fanbase. I can't think of any way it could be less petered out.

They will be getting me back with the new Gamma World. I'll buy the first release and the others if it plays the way I think it will. And this from one who has never purchased a single 4e product--I thought I was off the ride and out of the amusement park when 3.5 ended. I think Gamma World will be a concise but complete game experience, which is what I'm looking for these days. I want good rules, a fun story and easy minis (or counters). Again as the OP mentioned, Savage Worlds really hits all those elements for me right now. If Gamma World can do it, too; then I'm in.

They could also get me back with a CD or DVD of all the printed Dungeon Adventures magazines. That would be cool.