Unboxing the DM's Kit

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:

if a player is asking for a magic item by name:

1) He's metagaming

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Agreed.

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:

My game culture strongly discourages metagaming.

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Whereas I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan.

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:

Dropping "wishlist" items at random just seems really lame: it devalues what should be special items and it deliberately ignores opportunities to add those little side-treks that flesh out campaigns and develop characters.

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From my point of view, wishlists helps players build the PCs they want, and give them PCs who have the adventures their players want them to have without needing to insert unnecessary diversions into the game. I prefer a game in which the campaign and the PCs are fleshed out by the main event. I don't really need side treks.

I'm therefore a bit sceptical about the move to random item generation.

pemerton said:

Agreed.

Whereas I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan.


From my point of view, wishlists helps players build the PCs they want, and give them PCs who have the adventures their players want them to have without needing to insert unnecessary diversions into the game. I prefer a game in which the campaign and the PCs are fleshed out by the main event. I don't really need side treks.

I'm therefore a bit sceptical about the move to random item generation.

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You aren't randomly determining specific items just randoming determining whether you find an item, what level it is, and what rarity it is. Specific items still need to be selected by the DM. To me it seems to be a good mix of the old and the new.

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:

At risk of hijacking the thread: This epitomizes everything that I find wrong about wish lists.

Call me old school and call me guilty of promoting "the right way to play D&D", but if a player is asking for a magic item by name:

1) He's metagaming, unless his character has been told in game as a plot point the the Sword of Foo will help him defeat the evil lich king. My game culture strongly discourages metagaming.

2) If she has been told the Orb of Reckoning will help defeat the hobgoblin menace, it becomes a plot point and an adventure to find it is called for, the result of which is the defeat of a miniboss and the Orb as treasure.

3) If you find the Fiddle of Happy Times and Sad Times Too and you don't want it, deal with it in game. Find someone in a major city to sell it to, pick up a new hobby, or trade it to a minstrel for a tip on where to find that Cape of Neck Slot Checkbox Ticking. Don't cry about it like a poorly-raised three-year-old.

Dropping "wishlist" items at random just seems really lame: it devalues what should be special items and it deliberately ignores opportunities to add those little side-treks that flesh out campaigns and develop characters.

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Magic items are no longer a bonus for your character. They are as needed as feats or powers or anything else.

Not letting players choose most of them (with you then setting them into the adventure as you desire and throwing in a few curve balls) is ridiculous.

Most people think bartering magic items is boring. It also makes magic items seem so much more common place.

TikkchikFenTikktikk said:

1) He's metagaming, unless his character has been told in game as a plot point the the Sword of Foo will help him defeat the evil lich king. My game culture strongly discourages metagaming.

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Sure. But your game culture might be improved by choosing which metagaming you discourage and which you encourage on a case by case basis rather than having it be just a hated thing all the time.

As for 4E, the game's math assumes the character is getting certain pluses by certain levels. A certain amount of items by certain levels.

Furthermore, there's nothing to spend gold on other than things to get adventures done. Ritual components, potions, equipment and magic items. GP are essentially a second form of experience that players use to add abilities to their characters.

The mechanics of the game assume player choice in these matters.

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Do I do it that way? No. I have a nice clear talk with my players before hand that my campaign isn't normal. That the item prices and gold value of items by level isn't going to be used in my game.

I also don't use wishlists and ask players not to pre-build future level advancement choices. 3.x had a lot of feat prerequisites that made prebuilding mandatory if you wanted to have a chance to get certain abilities by certain levels. 4E largely does away with this and I generally ask players not to pre-level up their characters.

I also don't have buying and selling of magic items. And I heavily restrict item creation.

But my approach is not the norm. I'm very mindful of the system math and understand it enough to make these changes. But my way is the unusual/not normal way, not the "one true way." It's why I lay things out in advance.

fjw70 said:

You aren't randomly determining specific items just randoming determining whether you find an item, what level it is, and what rarity it is. Specific items still need to be selected by the DM. To me it seems to be a good mix of the old and the new.

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Yet, its also a good way to severely unbalance the game and make the DMs life a living hell. A few lucky/unlucky rolls and the PCs are way above or way below the power curve.

Marshall said:

Yet, its also a good way to severely unbalance the game and make the DMs life a living hell. A few lucky/unlucky rolls and the PCs are way above or way below the power curve.

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Not really- all the normal guards are still in effect.

Seems like the random magic items tables might be perfect for the next adventure tool. Tables are much easier to keep up to date if they're electronic.

Ahrimon said:

Seems like the random magic items tables might be perfect for the next adventure tool. Tables are much easier to keep up to date if they're electronic.

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From what it sounds like there's nothing to keep up to date though...

The charts don't randomly roll specific items. It sounds like it's kind of merging the random item tables of old with the parcel system.

Instead of rolling and getting say a Vorpal Blade, the DM rolls and gets told to pick a Rare item. Which item that is though is up to the DM.

So is the book included in here have the same exact contents of the DMG?

fjw70 said:

You aren't randomly determining specific items just randoming determining whether you find an item, what level it is, and what rarity it is. Specific items still need to be selected by the DM. To me it seems to be a good mix of the old and the new.

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I just don't feel any need for the old. I'm happy with the new.

The Human Target said:

Magic items are no longer a bonus for your character. They are as needed as feats or powers or anything else.

Not letting players choose most of them (with you then setting them into the adventure as you desire and throwing in a few curve balls) is ridiculous.

Most people think bartering magic items is boring.

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And here we have a clear stateent of the reasons why I like the new.