Pathfinder 1E Incarnum in Pathfinder

paradox42

First Post
Increasing Aid Another could get very broken, very fast, yes... but if it was limited to skill-checks only, and 1/2 the benefit of the other bonuses, that would probably be balanced (heh. balance).
I don't like the idea of changing the basic mechanic given with the other Talents- that is, suddenly changing the bonus granted and altering how it interacts with the rest of the game. Keep in mind, too, that the Incarnate can be Sharing this, so other characters could be stacking the bonus onto one person as well. With the existing Talents, they could use the bonus to Aid Another, but doing that can only ever grant the same old +2 bonus so it doesn't really change much.

I'm glad you like the idea of the Gift of Negation, there's just one problem though. A Neutral Incarnate's going to be TN, so most of the alignment-based stuff doesn't work on him anyway. That's why it's a radius of effect, so that the Devil's Blasphemy doesn't hit your Paladin buddy.
You miss the point of Incarnum Radiance if you think it should offer any protection whatsoever for the Incarnate's Paladin buddy. The Paladin's an extreme alignment, by definition; as far as the Balance "alignment" is concerned, he deserves whatever nasty evil things he gets since he went so far off the balanced way. Remember, the Incarnate as a class is supposed to represent the strongest possible alignment conviction; that's its whole reason for being.

Also, it's worth noting that all of the offensive alignment effects (such as Blasphemy, which you mentioned) specifically do affect neutral creatures; they're designed to affect non-X aligned creatures (where X is of course the effect's own alignment, for example, Chaos Hammer is Chaotic). The Incarnate of Balance, while using Gift of Neutrality, would be utterly immune to those, as if he actually were X-aligned. So would any of his friends who happen to be eligible for the Sharing of his Radiance, so if we (for instance) allow the Incarnate of Balance to Share with allies who are Neutral on either alignment axis, rather than True Neutral, then it would be possible for the Incarnate of Balance to render his Lawful Neutral friend immune to Chaos Hammer and Word of Chaos (a big one). That doesn't look weak at all to me. :)

Maybe if it was limited so you couldn't share it, that would be fairly balanced, I think. That, or if you share it, it affects your allies and you, but there's no radius of effect.
Even worse. Again, suddenly changing the way the whole mechanic works just for the Incarnate of Balance is a Bad Idea. It's practically guaranteed to cause rule headaches down the line.

The Mace is already pretty much the best simple weapon in the game... maybe a 1d8 damage Morningstar would be nice too... it doesn't have the critical benefits of something like a Longsword (19-20) or a Longbow (x3), but it can do piercing or bludgeoning... which is perfect for overcoming damage reduction. Huh, I wonder if there could be some way to have the Incarnum Weapon be a certain material type... maybe if you bound it to your arms chakra, you could have it overcome damage reduction as though it was any material... that would be cool. Or maybe they already thought of that's and I''m too tired to think.
ATM there isn't such a way, but that's a potential avenue to explore for making a feat. It's highly specialized, so the question in my mind is, is it actually even worth a feat? There are spells and other effects in Pathfinder which can temporarily change the material of a weapon for the purposes of DR; nothing about the Incarnate Weapon's description leads me to think that such things wouldn't work on one. The Weapon is apparently a physical object; other creatures can pick it up (they just don't get any of the benefits the Incarnate does when wielding it, if they do). My own test character was actually built specifically with the idea that he likes to throw his axe, since it returns to him automatically one round later (it's like getting a free Weapon of Throwing). Admittedly, he doesn't do it often, but he does do it.

Chaos gives speed, Good and Evil give flight, Law gives a whole bunch of immunities... almost feels like Neutral should have a whole bunch of immunities too. Maybe immunity to charm and mind-affecting, to represent the unshakeable neutrality of the Auromach (which I believe are kind of Stupid Neutral too). I dunno, mix and match I guess. At the very worst, they could use a Globe of Invulnerability.
Immunity to Charm works nicely, I agree- in fact, one could even go immunity to Compulsion as well IMO since this is a Soul bind (and therefore the strongest possible type). Possibly consider the immunity to low-level effects in addition to that; a full Globe may be too much. Similarly, although a Soul bind is strong enough to consider 8th-level effects (and therefore Mind Blank), any such effect would have to be limited somehow (the way the Gate is limited to 1/week for Planar Chasuble). Better probably to just limit it to specific kinds of mental effects- Charm and Compulsion being the two most obvious ones.
 

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Chronologist

First Post
I gave Paladin as an example there... though Balance doesn't mean hating those of extreme alignments. I see no reason why a Balance Incarnate working with a paladin on a mutually beneficial quest couldn't share his protective abilities. The Paladin wouldn't refuse healing to a TN character because he wasn't as dedicated to Law and Good as the Paladin, why would the Incarnate not help a friend or ally? True Netural, even vehemently so, does not mean Stupid Neutral. Regardless, alignment can be discussed in greater detail after the mechanical aspects are down.

Being able to bypass material and damage-type damage reduction is really important, especially against certain types of monsters (mainly outsiders). Since I doubt the Incarnate's going to be a heavy hitter in melee, I think it's be worth a feat to make the Incarnate Weapon bypass that kind of damage reduction, it'd keep the Incarnate a little more up-to-par in a melee fight, especially at higher levels. Personally, I'd like to think that all Incarnate Weapons function the same for damage and use, only the shape of the weapon is changed by alignment.

Immunity to Charm and Compusion seems like a reasonable ability... perhaps you could throw in Immunity to Read Thoughts and other similar abilities. Personally, I think that since the Law Incarnate is immune to many physical attack types, Neutral Incarnates should be immune to mental attacks, to a lesser or greater degree.

Perhaps spell resistance versus scrying could be thrown in there, I dunno.
 

paradox42

First Post
I gave Paladin as an example there... though Balance doesn't mean hating those of extreme alignments. I see no reason why a Balance Incarnate working with a paladin on a mutually beneficial quest couldn't share his protective abilities. The Paladin wouldn't refuse healing to a TN character because he wasn't as dedicated to Law and Good as the Paladin, why would the Incarnate not help a friend or ally? True Netural, even vehemently so, does not mean Stupid Neutral. Regardless, alignment can be discussed in greater detail after the mechanical aspects are down.
This is the critical point I was making before: the Incarnate does want to help all his allies and can work with whoever he likes. But the powers behind the Incarnate don't want to help extremists. The powers behind the Incarnate are what you're calling Stupid Neutral. This is illustrated perfectly by the way the other Incarnates work: two of my test character's party members are non-Chaotic, and I can assure you that every time one or both of those two was within range of my Incarnum Radiance, when I chose to Share it, I would have preferred them to get the benefit. But they don't: because the Radiance itself only helps Chaotic people. It refuses to help non-Chaotic beings, no matter how friendly the Incarnate is with them. In the case of the Incarnate of Balance, this means that they won't help an extremist like a Paladin, under any circumstances. That's what Strongly True Neutral (to use the terminology from Manual of the Planes) does.

Being able to bypass material and damage-type damage reduction is really important, especially against certain types of monsters (mainly outsiders). Since I doubt the Incarnate's going to be a heavy hitter in melee, I think it's be worth a feat to make the Incarnate Weapon bypass that kind of damage reduction, it'd keep the Incarnate a little more up-to-par in a melee fight, especially at higher levels. Personally, I'd like to think that all Incarnate Weapons function the same for damage and use, only the shape of the weapon is changed by alignment.
There is actually one more thing that changes; each type of Incarnate Weapon is aligned. It can penetrate alignment-based DR just fine: for instance, a Good Incarnate's Weapon will penetrate DR X/Good. And the Bind gives them the ability to be "charged" with the potential to Stun opposite-aligned targets, but that's neither here nor there really (Balance would of course use that to Stun extreme-aligned targets).

My concern with the feat wasn't so much how it works out for the Incarnate, but rather that it seems to be so highly specialized that most Incarnates wouldn't ever bother taking it. It may be a weak option, in other words, like the 3.0 Toughness.

Immunity to Charm and Compusion seems like a reasonable ability... perhaps you could throw in Immunity to Read Thoughts and other similar abilities. Personally, I think that since the Law Incarnate is immune to many physical attack types, Neutral Incarnates should be immune to mental attacks, to a lesser or greater degree.

Perhaps spell resistance versus scrying could be thrown in there, I dunno.
Immunity to Scrying seems reasonable, certainly, though that's Divination rather than Enchantment. So is Detect Thoughts for that matter, though it has the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor so that's less important. I think giving immunities to most mental attack types, while stopping short of total immunity a la Mind Blank, is the way to go here. Power Word spells, for example, should still work, but stuff like Dominate Person would be Right Out.
 

paradox42

First Post
Revisiting the Necrocarnate base class

I liked the ideas discussed last month, and decided this weekend to add the class to the homebrew world I'm building- which meant that I had to add it to the class document for said world, and in the process write a complete mechanical description of it and clean up the rules a little (really, just specifying what happens in fringe cases and closing loopholes, that sort of thing).

In the process, it became abundantly clear to me that the Necrocarnate by its very nature should not be a poor-BAB class- it's far too combative. It wants to be closer to the Totemist than the Incarnate, in other words, at least in terms of the class table- its Soulmeld selection will determine where its powers really focus (and those should, as Chronologist noted, be largely stealth and illusion focused IMO). So, I redid the class table to instead use medium BAB, and get an essentia progression equal to Totemist rather than Incarnate and Foundationist. Since I was doing that, I figured it would be fair to give Necrocarnate extra skill points, like the Totemist also gets, and also to give it Bluff and Intimidate as class skills.

With all these tweaks, combined with the idea I had to fill a dead level at 18th, I figured I should post my newer version and see what others thought of it.

Alignment: Necrocarnum itself is by its very nature a craft of pure and darkest Evil, involving as it does the capture and torture of souls to extract power from them unwillingly- but it is also, ultimately, a tool. Non-Evil people can use it for non-Evil ends, and it is possible to avoid staining one's soul too deeply by using mostly Evil souls for the process. Therefore, a Necrocarnate cannot be Good-aligned, but is not otherwise restricted in alignment (however, note the Aura of Evil class feature below).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Necrocarnates are proficient with all Simple weapons, Light armor, and Shields (but not Tower Shields).

Class Skills: The Necrocarnate's class skills are: Bluff (CHA), Craft (INT), Fly (DEX), Intimidate (CHA), Knowledge (Arcana) (INT), Knowledge (Planes) (INT), Knowledge (Religion) (INT), Profession (WIS), and Spellcraft (INT).

Skill Points per Level: 4 + INT modifier.
Hit Die: d8.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Soulmelds Essentia Binds
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Aura of Evil, Chakra Bind (Least), Essentia Drain (1), Necrotic Touch (1d6) 2 1 1
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Shield of Souls 3 2 2
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Chakra Bind (Least), Necrotic Touch (2d6) 3 2 2
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Essentia Drain (2) 4 3 2
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Chakra Bind (Least), Necrotic Touch (3d6) 4 5 2
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Expanded Necro Capacity +1 4 6 3
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Chakra Bind (Lesser), Necrotic Touch (4d6) 5 7 3
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Essentia Drain (3) 5 7 3
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Chakra Bind (Lesser), Necrotic Touch (5d6) 5 8 3
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Trap the Soul 6 11 4
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Chakra Bind (Lesser), Necrotic Touch (6d6) 6 12 4
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Essentia Drain (4) 6 13 4
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Chakra Bind (Greater), Necrotic Touch (7d6) 7 14 4
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Expanded Necro Capacity +2 7 15 5
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Chakra Bind (Greater), Necrotic Touch (8d6) 7 18 5
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Essentia Drain (5) 8 19 5
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Chakra Bind (Heart), Necrotic Touch (9d6) 8 20 5
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Essentia Storm 8 22 6
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Chakra Bind (Soul), Necrotic Touch (10d6) 9 24 6
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Deathless, Essentia Drain (6) 9 28 6

Meldshaping: A Necrocarnate has the ability to shape Soulmelds, which are drawn from the Necrocarnate Soulmeld list. All Necrocarnates know (and can shape) all Soulmelds from this list, but note that shaping Soulmelds designated as Necrocarnum activates the character's Aura of Evil class feature (see below). Necrocarnates are not restricted from shaping any Soulmelds on their class list by alignment or other descriptors.

The DC for a saving throw against a Necrocarnate's Soulmeld is 10 + the number of points of essentia invested in the Soulmeld + the Necrocarnate's CHA modifier. The Meldshaper Level is equal to the Necrocarnate level.

A Necrocarnate can shape only a certain number of Soulmelds per day. His base daily allotment is given in the class table below. The maximum number of Soulmelds that the character can have shaped simultaneously is equal to his CON score minus 10, or the number of Soulmelds allowed for his level, whichever is lower. At 1st level, a Necrocarnate can shape two Soulmelds at a time (assuming he has a CON score of at least 12). As he advances in level, he can shape an increasing number of soulmelds.

Unlike other meldshapers, a Necrocarnate does not gain a pool of personal essentia at 1st level- Necrocarnates do not naturally possess essentia, they steal it (see Essentia Drain below).

A Necrocarnate does not study or prepare Soulmelds in advance, but must have a good night's rest and must meditate for 1 hour to shape his Soulmelds for the day (see Shaping Soulmelds, on page 49 of Magic of Incarnum).

Essentia Drain (Su): Necrocarnates do not gain a pool of essentia from Necrocarnate class levels, unlike other meldshaping classes; however, a Necrocarnate does have an essentia pool which may be filled by stealing essentia from other creatures. Essentia in this pool can be invested into his Soulmelds to increase their power, just as essentia from any other sources can be; should the Necrocarnate have a permanent essentia pool in addition to this "unfilled" pool from Necrocarnate levels, then essentia from both pools may be combined and invested as normal for characters with multiple sources of essentia. For example, a Necrocarnate with one Incarnum feat (all of which grant a point of essentia) has one permanent point of essentia which never goes away, and his maximum essentia limit is one higher than the number given in the Necrocarnate class table below. As with other meldshapers and essentia users, the Necrocarnate's character level determines the maximum quantity of essentia that he can invest in any single Soulmeld, as noted in Magic of Incarnum table 2-1: Essentia Capacity. As a Swift Action, a Necrocarnate can reallocate his essentia investments in all of his Soulmelds, every round (see Magic of Incarnum, page 50, "Essentia").

Necrocarnates fill their essentia pool by draining power from living creatures. Whenever a Necrocarnate deals damage to a living creature with his Necrotic Touch ability, or a special ability from any Soulmeld with the Necrocarnum descriptor (such as the ranged touch attack granted by the Arms Chakra Bind of Necrocarnum Touch), he may use this ability as a free action to gain 1 point of essentia. At every 4th Necrocarnate level, the Necrocarnate gains 1 more point of essentia when damaging a living creature this way. Essentia gained this way lasts for 24 hours, or until the character rests and reshapes his Soulmelds for a day, whichever comes first; during this time it can be invested and used as normal. When the drained essentia "expires," the Necrocarnate's essentia pool is reduced to its base amount (typically 0, though a character with other sources of essentia may have permanent points that never go away, as described above) and is immediately reallocated as if the character took an action to reinvest essentia (though this "action" is involuntary and occurs whether the Necrocarnate wants it to or not).

If a Necrocarnate who is carrying drained essentia (acquired via this ability) dies, then all drained essentia immediately expires as noted above. If the Necrocarnate is brought back to life via Raise Dead or other similar means, his essentia pool will once again be empty/at its base level.

Should a Necrocarnate try to drain essentia from a target that is resistant to his Necrotic Touch or damaging ability (whether by Spell Resistance, or another method), then the Necrocarnate gains the standard amount of essentia if any damage at all from the Necrotic Touch (or whatever) affects the target; if the target takes no damage from the Necrotic Touch (or whatever), however, then the Necrocarnate gains no essentia. It is possible for a Necrocarnate to gain more points of essentia than were dealt as damage, though such an event is extremely unusual. A Necrotic Touch (or other ability) that removes temporary hit points from its target is considered to have damaged the target, for the purposes of Essentia Drain, even if the target took no real damage from it.


Necrotic Touch (Su): A Necrocarnate can steal the life force from his foes merely by touching them. As a standard action, a Necrocarnate may make a melee touch attack against a target and deal 1d6 damage plus another 1d6 damage for every two Necrocarnate levels beyond 1st. Objects, and creatures of the Construct type, take half damage from this ability, but creatures of the Undead type take full damage (despite not being "alive" in the technical sense). This ability does not allow a saving throw for reduced damage or effect, but it is subject to Spell Resistance (the Necrocarnate's class level is used as the caster level for the roll).

Aura of Evil (Ex): A Necrocarnate, even one of non-Evil alignment, generates an aura of Evil for the purposes of the Detect Evil spell as an Evil-aligned Cleric/Paladin of the same level as his Necrocarnate level. This aura is not always active, however; even Evil-aligned Necrocarnates only show an aura of Evil under specific conditions. The Aura of Evil is active (and detectable) only while the Necrocarnate is carrying essentia drained from a living creature, or is using one or more Soulmelds with the Necrocarnum descriptor.

Chakra Binds: Necrocarnates are more flexible than other meldshapers with regard to opening their various Chakras. Instead of gaining open Chakras at specific levels, as other meldshaping classes do, a Necrocarnate instead chooses a not-yet-open Chakra of the appropriate tier upon gaining a Necrocarnate class level noting a Chakra Bind. The Heart and Soul Chakras are gained at 17th and 19th levels, respectively, but otherwise the character chooses which Chakra to open at each odd-numbered level, according to the following lists. The Least Chakras are (Crown, Feet, Hands), while the Lesser Chakras are (Arms, Brow, Shoulders), and the Greater Chakras are (Throat, Waist). Thus, a 1st-level Necrocarnate could start with the Crown Chakra, and upon attaining 3rd level could then choose to open Feet, and then Hands upon attaining 5th- but if desired, the character could instead start with Feet, then gain Hands at 3rd, and Crown at 5th.

Shield of Souls (Su): At 2nd level, a Necrocarnate gains the ability to use the unwilling souls bound into Necrocarnum for other purposes. Once per day per two class levels, a Necrocarnate can gain a profane bonus on saving throws equal to +1 per Necrocarnum soulmeld he has shaped (thus, a Necrocarnate with 3 Necrocarnum melds shaped gains a +3 bonus). This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Necrocarnate's CHA modifier. Activating this ability is an immediate action.

Expanded Necro Capacity (Ex): At 6th level, and again at 14th, the essentia capacity of any Soulmelds with the Necrocarnum descriptor increases by 1. This only affects Soulmelds with the Necrocarnum descriptor, not feats, class features, or other abilities involving or allowing essentia investment.

Trap the Soul (Su): If a Necrocarnate of 10th level or higher successfully uses Essentia Drain on a creature, then that creature's soul is bound up in the Necrocarnate's web of power. Should the creature die during the time the Necrocarnate has essentia in his pool from that Essentia Drain action, then the creature cannot be brought back from the dead by any means until after the essentia expires from the Necrocarnate's essentia pool, just as if the Necrocarnate had used Soul Bind on the creature. Once the drained essentia expires from the Necrocarnate's essentia pool, for whatever reason, the creature may be brought back via normal means (and the Necrocarnate cannot thereafter reestablish the "trap"). A Necrocarnate may choose to allow a "soul-trapped" creature to be brought back, but must do so voluntarily- coercion cannot be used to force the character to allow the creature to come back.

Essentia Storm (Su): An 18th-level Necrocarnate gains the ability to disrupt the essentia drained from his targets, and break it up to release the energy held within. Once per day, as a standard action, the Necrocarnate can activate this ability to create a Burst of raw force in a 40-foot radius around himself. Once the energy cascade begins, it cannot be stopped; the Necrocarnate's essentia pool is immediately drained back to its "empty" or base level (this also frees any creatures affected by the character's Trap the Soul ability, as described above). For each point of essentia lost in this way, creatures within the radius take 1d4 points of Force damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half the Necrocarnate's level + the Necrocarnate's CHA modifier) is allowed for half damage. Unlike the Necrotic Touch, this ability is not subject to Spell Resistance. Creatures of the Undead and Construct types take damage from this ability just as other creatures do, despite it using a Fortitude save; however, objects are not affected at all. The Necrocarnate is not himself harmed by this explosive burst, but any allies nearby take damage and make saving throws like any other creature caught in the radius. Also, since this leaves the Necrocarnate drained of most energy and power, it is normally only used in truly desperate circumstances.

Deathless (Su): A 20th-level Necrocarnate who has at least one Soulmeld with the Necrocarnum descriptor shaped gains the following abilities and immunities: Darkvision 60 feet; Immunity to: ability damage to physical ability scores (mental ability scores can still be damaged), ability drain, bleed, death effects, disease, energy drain, exhaustion, fatigue, nonlethal damage, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, stunning; Immunity to any effect that requires breathing (such as inhaled afflictions, "cloud" spells such as Cloudkill, etc.). The Necrocarnate does not need to breathe, eat, or sleep while this ability is active, though he must still rest for 8 hours (performing no significant activity) as normal for use of abilities (such as natural healing) that require rest.
 
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paradox42

First Post
Further Commentary

I'm still not 100% on Essentia Storm as a near-capstone power, though I really like the idea and don't think it's appropriate for a Soulmeld to have the ability to drain its user's essentia to produce an effect that way. The idea of giving the Necrocarnate an ability to blow up his own essentia for an Alpha Strike just struck me as cool, and very in-flavor for what else the class does.

New Soulmelds obviously need to be created for this; one really obvious addition would be something to let the Necrotic Touch be used at range instead of just melee- this would make the Necrocarnate even more like the Warlock than it already is.

Another thought struck me earlier today, regarding the idea of the Midnight melds: if we say, as I did in the "Alignment" section of my version above, that Necrocarnum does not always use Good souls and torture them, but is instead just a means of using unwilling souls in soulmelds, then it follows that not every Necrocarnum meld need necessarily be Evil-aligned. None would be Good, of course, but every single Necrocarnum meld in Magic of Incarnum carries both the [Evil] descriptor, and the [Necrocarnum] descriptor. So, what if that doesn't have to be true for the Necrocarnate class list? Could the "Midnight" melds be [Necrocarnum] melds that just don't happen to be [Evil]? Food for thought.
 

Hellseele

First Post
This all looks very interesting. I'm designing a world based on both Incarnum and Ghostwalk and converting both to Pathfinder, and am very happy to see that most of the work for Incarnum has already been done here. Truly excellent work, seems very thorough and carefully balanced.

A couple of questions, if you're still around:
1. What is the Necrocarnate's soulmeld list? I managed to put together a complete list for the Foundationist from the list of pattern binds, but don't see anything similar here. Is it perhaps the same as the Incarnate list?

2. In your time since designing this, have you had more of a chance to playtest the changes? I'm specifically curious about the new classes and the Incarnate, which always struck me as strange with the poor BAB despite having primarily melee-range soulmelds. I had considered switching the Incarnate to a medium attack bonus, as you did with the Necrocarnate, what are your thoughts on this?

3. Do you have a complete list of converted (and added) soulmelds for Pathfinder? I realize this couldn't be shared here, but I'd be interested to compare it with my own work and those that I found elsewhere (PART 1 Incarnum Unleashed, A Pathfinder/3.5 Redux to Magic of Incarnum [PEACH] - Giant in the Playground Forums does a full conversion, but the class adjustments are a bit more extreme than I'd like).

Thanks for taking the time do make all this, and I hope you're still around to answer questions!
 

paradox42

First Post
This all looks very interesting. I'm designing a world based on both Incarnum and Ghostwalk and converting both to Pathfinder, and am very happy to see that most of the work for Incarnum has already been done here. Truly excellent work, seems very thorough and carefully balanced.

A couple of questions, if you're still around:
I am still around, yes, though I honestly didn't think anybody was still reading this anymore! I've just been developing it on my own, playtesting characters in various games run by former players of mine, and such. Thanks for the compliment!

IMO, Incarnum does work best in a world specifically designed for it from the start; I've got it very heavily worked in to the PF version of my setting now. I even came up with rules to research new soulmelds (though those are totally untested as yet, they are based on the system I came up with to make the new soulmelds so they should be reasonably close to a good balanced final version)

The only class not playtested at this point is the Totemist; I'm actually running a Soulborn now (though he just died during the last game session- the party might be able to bring him back but it's uncertain at this point). The testing has been most instructive. I've added and tweaked things several times as a result of it. I've even made Archetypes for all of the classes, and one Alternate Class (a Soulborn that uses the Foundationist list, essentially, though that one's completely untested as yet).

1. What is the Necrocarnate's soulmeld list? I managed to put together a complete list for the Foundationist from the list of pattern binds, but don't see anything similar here. Is it perhaps the same as the Incarnate list?
No, I gave it its own list and just never posted it here- I can post that in a future post. I have Detailed Files, as the Terminator said.

2. In your time since designing this, have you had more of a chance to playtest the changes? I'm specifically curious about the new classes and the Incarnate, which always struck me as strange with the poor BAB despite having primarily melee-range soulmelds. I had considered switching the Incarnate to a medium attack bonus, as you did with the Necrocarnate, what are your thoughts on this?
Incarnate probably could be changed over to Medium BAB and d8 hit dice with little trouble, though for my part I've kept the d6 and poor BAB. I go back and forth about worrying that switching it to Medium will make it too good, like the Cleric, because its soulmeld list makes it behave in a manner similar to a "Cleric of Incarnum." But if you want to test it that way, I say go for it. It could very well work.

3. Do you have a complete list of converted (and added) soulmelds for Pathfinder? I realize this couldn't be shared here, but I'd be interested to compare it with my own work and those that I found elsewhere (PART 1 Incarnum Unleashed, A Pathfinder/3.5 Redux to Magic of Incarnum [PEACH] - Giant in the Playground Forums does a full conversion, but the class adjustments are a bit more extreme than I'd like).
I have not actually made much conversion as such, because in my view it wasn't necessary- most of the soulmelds work pretty well as-is if you just take the skill changes into account (for example, Shadow Mantle helps all of Perception instead of just Listen, and all of Stealth if you Bind it to Totem instead of just Hide). The change in how Combat Maneuvers work is also important to watch, of course, though the numbers correspond almost exactly to what the 3.5 soulmelds gave so again- not much actual "conversion" is needed.

I do, of course, have shorthand versions of all four soulmeld class lists that I made long ago; these I could email you or something I suppose. It's stupid WotC never added Incarnum to the SRD; it had so much potential as a system once you can understand the way it fits together. It's elegant, and surprisingly simple to use despite the complexity of the rules.

I'd never seen the GitP version! That person did some good work too, from the cursory glance I just gave it; fully considering it will of course take more time than I have tonight. Thanks for the link!
 
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paradox42

First Post
True Necrocarnate Shorthand Soulmeld List

KEY: (E) = invested Essentia, (U) = Soulmeld unshapes, (ML) = Meldshaper Level, StdA = Standard Action, FullA = Full-Round Action, SwfA = Swift Action, MvA = Move Action, ImmA = Immediate Action


Apparition Ribbon: Reroll Incorporeal miss chance once per attack, +(2E) insight damage rolls vs. Incorporeal.
Throat: StdA become Incorporeal for (1+E) rounds, limit of ML rounds/day.
Displacer Mantle: +(4+2E) competence Stealth.
Shoulders: Constant Blur.
Totem: 2 Tentacle attacks, reach +5 feet, 1d4+(E) damage each.
Enigma Helm: Constant Nondetection using (ML) as caster level, +(E) enhancement Will.
Crown: Immunity to Charm effects.
Fearsome Mask: +(2+2E) Intimidate.
Brow: Gaze makes enemies Shaken for 1 minute (Will negates).
Feet of Clay: Each round, you can treat up to (10+5E) feet of difficult terrain as normal terrain instead for movement purposes. (Shared: Incarnate, Soulborn)
Feet: You treat all terrain as normal terrain for movement purposes.
Waist: Same as Feet ability, plus constant Spider Climb.
Pattern: SwfA For 1 round, every 5-foot square of stone or earth that you enter is filled with Spike Stones which last for (E) minutes. The DC to detect these traps is (25+E) rather than the standard 29 for the spell. Maximum (3+E) uses before (U).
Fellmist Robe: Concealment (10+5E)% from nonadjacent attackers.
Soul: Concealment also against adjacent attackers.
Gloves of the Poisoned Soul (Evil): StdA (1/round, only 1/day per target) melee touch inflict poison: (Type: poison, spell; Save: Fort DC varies by spell; Frequency: 1/minute for 2 minutes; Effect: (1+E) WIS damage; Cure: 2 consecutive saves).
Hands: Poison instead becomes (Type: poison, spell; Save: Fort DC varies by spell; Frequency: 1/minute for 2 minutes; Effect: (1+E) WIS damage and (1+E) STR damage; Cure: 2 consecutive saves).
Hunter's Circlet: +(2+2E) insight Heal & Survival.
Crown: Can use Survival to follow tracks as if trained, and add (ML/2) to Survival checks made to follow tracks.
Totem: Gain Scent special quality (at half standard strength- so 15-foot radius standard, 30 feet upwind, etc.), and +4 competence to Survival when tracking by smell.
Impulse Boots: Uncanny Dodge, +(E) enhancement Reflex.
Feet: Evasion.
Krenshar Mask: +(4+2E) competence Acrobatics & Stealth.
Brow: Same bonus on Intimidate.
Totem: StdA Frighten 1 target within 30 feet (Will negates).
Lamia Belt (Evil): +(4+2E) competence Bluff & Stealth.
Waist: Spring Attack (as feat), +10 feet enhancement on land speed.
Totem: 2 Claws as secondary attacks, 1d4 damage each.
*Midnight Bracers (Necrocarnum): +(E) insight on initiative checks, Improved Feint (as the feat).
Arms: You can Deflect Arrows (1+E) times/round, as the feat except that you can use this ability even while flat-footed, and can do so more than once per round.
*Midnight Cap (Necrocarnum): +(E) resistance Will vs. Scrying and Illusions.
Crown: Constant Undetectable Alignment.
*Midnight Cloak (Necrocarnum): +(2+2E) competence on Bluff & Sleight of Hand.
Shoulders: FullA: Become Invisible (as if by Invisibility) for up to (E) minutes. Once you become visible again, you cannot activate this ability again for 1 minute. You can spend up to (ML) minutes invisible this way, before (U).
*Midnight Gloves (Necrocarnum): +(2+2E) competence CMB for Drag and Grapple checks, and on CMD vs. Disarm, Steal, and Sunder attempts.
Arms: You can make Grapple checks at range, up to (5+5E) ft. If you Grapple using this ability, you do not yourself become Grappled, but can otherwise use the maneuver normally. The opponent you Grapple this way cannot reverse the Grapple nor pin you, but can otherwise respond to the Grapple normally.
Hands: Same CMB bonus on Disarm, Steal, and Sunder checks. Same CMD bonus vs. Grapple and Drag attempts.
*Midnight Moccasins (Necrocarnum): +(4+2E) insight Stealth.
Feet: MvA: Fly (10+10E) feet/round with Good maneuverability (must end round supported, or fall).
*Midnight Necklace (Necrocarnum): +(2+2E) insight Bluff, Disguise, and Linguistics. You can use Bluff in place of Intimidate to force an opponent to act Friendly toward you.
Throat: +(4+2E) competence Bluff when trying to convince others (not for other uses of Bluff), and your lies cannot be detected by magic such as Discern Lies unless the caster succeeds on a Caster Level check (DC = 15 + E + your ML).
*Midnight Pantaloons (Necrocarnum): +(2+2E) insight on Climb. While in Dim light or darker, treat difficult terrain as normal terrain instead for movement purposes.
Feet: StdA Dimension Door in multiples of 10 feet, must begin and end in areas of Dim light or darker, limit (2ML)×10 feet before (U).
Heart: StdA Shadow Walk 1/day.
*Midnight Shirt (Necrocarnum): +(E) dodge AC. +4 competence Stealth in Dim light or darker.
Arms: FullA: Create (1+E) Mirror Images which last up to (ML) rounds. If you change (E), the number of images changes to match.
Heart: StdA: Project Image with duration (1+E) rounds and range (25+5E) ft., 1/hour. You can use any of your Soulmeld-granted abilities, or abilities granted by Necrocarnate class levels, through the image (not just spells), and you do not need to maintain line of effect to the image to maintain it.
*Midnight Weapon (Necrocarnum): Chosen weapon gains Ghost Touch, and +(E) enhancement.
Arms: You gain Improved Critical with the weapon. Also, on a critical hit with the weapon, you can deal your Necrotic Touch damage as if you had used that ability.
*Necrocarnum Avatar (Evil, Necrocarnum): +1 on saving throws.
Soul: StdA release a (5E)-ft.-radius Burst which causes living creatures within it to become Fatigued, and take a -(E) penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 round. Fort negates the penalty, but not the Fatigue.
*Necrocarnum Boots (Evil, Necrocarnum): +(4+2E) profane Stealth. The first 5-foot step you take during any round does not provoke AOOs.
Feet: The first (1+E) 5-foot moves you make during any round do not provoke AOOs.
Necrocarnum Circlet (Evil, Necrocarnum): Detect all Undead within 30 feet of you; they gain +(E) Channel Resistance.
Crown: FullA animate a corpse (HD <= your ML) within 30 feet of you as a Necrocarnum Zombie. You take 1 point of damage per HD of the corpse and can't heal it while corpse is animated. (E) increases zombie's essentia pool by same amount. No corpse can be animated this way more than once.
*Necrocarnum Cloak (Evil, Necrocarnum): Attackers striking you in melee take (1+E)d6 Cold damage (no save).
Shoulders: StdA deal (1+E) Cold damage to all adjacent creatures (Reflex half).
*Necrocarnum Gauntlets (Evil, Necrocarnum): You can add your Necrotic Touch to a standard melee weapon attack, 1/round, instead of just a melee touch attack.
Hands: You can use your Necrotic Touch as a ranged touch attack with range (10E) ft.
Necrocarnum Mantle (Evil, Necrocarnum): Immune to Disease, +(E) profane saves vs. Mind-Affecting effects.
Throat: Immune to Poison.
*Necrocarnum Mask (Evil, Necrocarnum): +(4+2E) profane Perception, and Low-Light Vision.
Brow: Gain Lifesense within a (5E)-ft. radius.
Crown: Same bonus on Intimidate.
Necrocarnum Shroud (Evil, Necrocarnum): Each time a living creature takes damage within (5+5E) feet of you, you gain +1 profane on attack & damage rolls that lasts 1 round. If triggering creature dies, bonus instead lasts a number of rounds equal to dead creature's HD.
Soul: StdA melee touch bestow 1d4 negative levels (Fort half), you gain 5 temporary hit points and 1 temporary essentia per negative level bestowed. Temporary essentia lasts until the end of your next turn, temporary hit points last 1 hour.
Waist: Any creature within (5+5E) feet of you at start of your turn is Shaken for 1 round (Will negates).
Necrocarnum Touch (Evil, Necrocarnum): +4 profane Sleight of Hand (can use untrained), Bluff (feints only). StdA melee touch deals (E)d8 damage to living target (Fort half).
Arms: StdA ranged touch within 30 feet (E)d8 damage to living target (Fort half).
Necrocarnum Vestments (Evil, Necrocarnum): Resist Cold 5, (3E) bonus hit points (not temporary: you gain become unconscious or dead by changing amount of invested Essentia).
Heart: Immune to Stun and Death effects.
Waist: Living creatures adjacent to you at end of each of your turns take 1d6 Cold (Fort half).
Necrocarnum Weapon (Evil, Necrocarnum): Chosen melee weapon gains constant Align Weapon (Evil), against living targets gains +(E) profane on damage rolls and rolls to confirm crits.
Hands: Gain (E) temporary essentia whenever you crit a living target. Temporary essentia lasts 10 rounds.
Ocher Shirt: Attackers striking you in melee take (1+E)d6 Acid damage (no save). (Shared: Soulborn, Totemist)
Arms: Whenever you hit with a melee attack, you can attempt a Sunder as a free action.
Waist: Whenever an attacker strikes you in melee, you can attempt Sunder on it as a free action
Totem: 50% negate crits/Sneak Attack.
Pattern: StdA (E)d6 Acid damage to all adjacent creatures (Reflex half).
Pauldrons of Health: Immune to Disease, Sicken, and Nausea. +(E) enhancement on Fort saves.
Shoulders: Immune to Energy Drain.
Phase Cloak: +(4+2E) competence Climb, can act as if you have Climb speed.
Shoulders: Can beome Ethereal while moving at least 5 feet, but must materialize at end of each move.
Totem: Bite, +(E) enhancement to hit, 1d4 damage plus poison: (Type: poison, injury; Save: Fort DC varies by spell; Frequency: 1/round for 3 rounds; Effect: 1 CON damage; Cure: 1 save).
Shadow Mantle: +(4+2E) competence Perception.
Shoulders: SwfA create (5E)-foot radius Darkness, gain Blindsight with same radius. Lasts until ended (another SwfA). Blindsight is negated in areas of Silence.
Totem: Same bonus on Stealth.
Sighting Gloves: +(1+E) insight ranged weapon damage.
Hands: Precise Shot (as feat).
Silvertongue Mask: +(2+2E) insight Bluff & Diplomacy.
Brow: Same bonus on Sense Motive.
Throat: StdA Suggestion at will, once/day per target.
Smoke Skirt: +(4+2E) on Disguise and Stealth checks.
Heart: StdA Gaseous Form, up to (20+2E) minutes/day.
Waist: StdA Pyrotechnics (smoke only) at will.
Pattern: Constant Pass Without Trace.
Steaming Veil: +(4+2E) on Bluff and Disguise checks. (Shared: Incarnate, Soulborn)
Brow: Disguise Self which also affects sound (disguise is chosen and made at shaping time).
Throat: +(4+2E) on Linguistics to create/detect forgeries.
Pattern: SwfA Blur (self only) for 1 round. Max (ML×5) rounds before (U).
Theft Gloves: +(2+2E) insight on Disable Device & Sleight of Hand, can use both untrained.
Hands: Trapfinding (as Rogue).
Voidmask: +(4+2E) on Perception and Stealth. (Shared: Incarnate)
Brow: Darkvision (30+30E) feet.
Throat: Sustains you without breathing or air. You are immune to inhaled afflictions.
Pattern: FullA Scrying for 1 round, and you take 1d6 unblockable damage. If you take another FullA to scry in the next round, then it continues the scrying begun this way rather than beginning a new effect. Max (ML×5) rounds before (U).
 

Hellseele

First Post
I am still around, yes, though I honestly didn't think anybody was still reading this anymore! I've just been developing it on my own, playtesting characters in various games run by former players of mine, and such. Thanks for the compliment!

Good to hear! The active conversation here seems to be pretty dead, but it's still one of the top hits on Google for such a conversion, so I suspect it's still getting some interest. Wonderful to hear you've still been working on things. After such playtesting, are there any major changes to the classes as you have listed them here?

IMO, Incarnum does work best in a world specifically designed for it from the start

I believe that. Ghostwalk is already highly spirit-based, so I was thinking a rework would be thematically simple - though now I think I may put it into something more standard to avoid overloading my players with ghost related rules in addition to Incarnum. I think soulmelds are hard enough to learn at first, even if they eventually do lead to an elegant system.

I've even made Archetypes for all of the classes, and one Alternate Class (a Soulborn that uses the Foundationist list, essentially, though that one's completely untested as yet).

What do you mean by Archetypes? Sorry if I'm missing something basic on this one.

No, I gave it its own list and just never posted it here- I can post that in a future post. I have Detailed Files, as the Terminator said.

Thanks for posting this, along with the shorthand descriptions. I really like the format you've developed!

Incarnate probably could be changed over to Medium BAB and d8 hit dice with little trouble, though for my part I've kept the d6 and poor BAB. I go back and forth about worrying that switching it to Medium will make it too good, like the Cleric, because its soulmeld list makes it behave in a manner similar to a "Cleric of Incarnum." But if you want to test it that way, I say go for it. It could very well work.

I definitely see the threat of overpowering on this one, but there are a few things which make the Incarnate significantly different form the Cleric. Clerics have much more substantial party buffs and control spells to work with, which the Incarnate just doesn't have. Since the majority of Incarnate actions will be spent on melee-range attacks or soulmeld abilities, I'll give them a boost.

One other issue with this is touch attacks - since the Incarnate does have a few touch abilities I don't want them to do heavy damage to easily, but I just reviewed it and they only get a few with minor damage. When compared to both the Cleric and the Totemist, who can get substantial ability damage or other debilitating effects from touches, it seems less an issue. Just a thought.

I do, of course, have shorthand versions of all four soulmeld class lists that I made long ago; these I could email you or something I suppose.

Actually, this would be really nice if you wouldn't mind. I was just sitting down with the thought of making up such a list myself, and this would save me some substantial time. Of course it would also provide you with another cross-check, which may help you out in the long run. If it's not too much trouble, you can send them to dmwinslow@gmail.com. Thanks!

I'd never seen the GitP version! That person did some good work too, from the cursory glance I just gave it; fully considering it will of course take more time than I have tonight. Thanks for the link!

It does look very thorough. I'd be curious to hear more on what you think when you've had a chance to look it over. As I mentioned some of the changes are quite a bit more extreme than the ones you listed (Incarnate BAB for one, Essentia totals, binds).
 

paradox42

First Post
Email sent as requested.

Archetypes are the alternate class versions (bundles of alternate class features, really) introduced in the APG, and continued on into every PF hardcover since then. If you have only the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, then you wouldn't know what they are, but otherwise it's rather surprising to encounter somebody who doesn't know about them!

But there have been changes- tweaks, for the most part, really- made to the versions I posted here over a year ago. Not just the Archetypes, but also changes just to the base classes themselves. For example, during the playtest of the Foundationist, I quickly discovered that the Foundationist relies heavily on his Pattern Bind ability, and that only allowing him to have one soulmeld bound to it at a time is crippling by comparison with standard-class spellcasters. So I gave the class abilities to bind more melds to that Chakra.

Now, during that same playtest, when I floated the idea of the multi-Chakra class features, the GM I was running the character under was leery of the idea himself, so he suggested a different class feature: one where the character can construct an elemental soulmeld using energy of a different element, to effectively change the descriptor and thus alter the essentia capacity of the meld. In the version I made for my own setting, I kept the multiple-bind features for the default version of the class, but I kept this "Reconstruction" idea for an Archetype.

Which brings me around to another thing I did, that being to create an NPC class that uses Incarnum. Sort of like an Adept to the Incarnate's Cleric. That's called the Bluesmith, and the basic idea is that it has an ability to share soulmelds it crafts with other people- the idea being that NPCs who develop this profession leverage Incarnum for use in their home communities and that's why they exist in the first place. Of course, once I had this class feature developed (still untested, BTW), I had to give it to the PC classes somehow. So I developed Archetypes for Incarnate, Totemist, and Foundationist that can use that ability in exchange for slightly reduced meldshaping capability.

I need to reread this thread to recall precisely what changes have been made to the classes since I posted them here, so I won't be detailing the changes in this post. I'll be sure of my details and compile them in a future post.
 

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