D&D 2E [2e] Monster Mythology Update Project

AuldDragon · Jul 28, 2012

Alzrius said:
AuldDragon, another excellent entry! As a big fan of your work, I'm glad you're still running with this.

Thanks!

Alzrius said:
A minor note, the seventh bullet point under the entry for shadowblade special abilities refers to them as "nightblades."

I've fixed it in my working document. Thanks!

Alzrius said:
Also, I notice that you include a smattering of scro worshippers among the racial entries for orc deities. I have to wonder how true that'd actually be, given that the scro have, as a society, rejected the "old gods" in favor of Dukagsh.

Even if there are some heretics among scro society (which is unlikely, given the totalitarian nature of Dukagsh's religion, but still possible), it's hard to imagine them actually becoming worshippers to the point of receiving divine benefits (e.g. clerical magic)...at least while in Dukagshspace (see Dragon Annual [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 [/URL] ); heretic scro in other crystal spheres are still possible.

I say that because it's implied (albeit never stated outright) that Dukagsh is the only deity with a connection to that crystal sphere (though it helps that he actually dwells within it, rather than another plane), and so other deities simply can't grant clerical benefits to priests there...it's highly unlikely that the scro military would allow for a temple to a foreign god to exist within their crystal sphere for a year, which (IIRC) is how long it takes a foreign god to establish themselves in a new sphere.

I do not think the Scro could fully stamp out the old faiths, especially when Luthic, Shargaas, and Yurtrus can be complimentary to the faith of Dukagsh. The old faith was certainly established in the sphere in the time between the fleet arrival and the death and apotheosis of Dukagsh, and Dukagsh is not powerful enough to close the sphere to them, so there should still be some worship of them, even if underground and hidden. In addition, it is entirely possible that those scro who choose to follow the old faiths have left the sphere for other places to live. Basically, my intent is to allow all such possibilities to exist.

Jeff

AuldDragon · Aug 10, 2012

Khurgorbaeyag the Overseer

Patron of goblins as a race, and a power of strict order and organization, is Khurgorbaeyag the Overseer. He is one of the few deities who does not have a strong interest in combat, and instead is a deity of slavery and oppression. Similarly, his priests are not front line fighters, and have a great focus on maintaining social order and castes, as well as training and maintaining slaves.

Jeff

AuldDragon · Aug 26, 2012

Yurtrus White-Hands

The final major orcish god, Yurtrus White-Hands is the dreadful god of death and disease. He never speaks, and is avoided by the other gods of the pantheon, who fear and loathe him. His priests are masters of orcish burials and death ceremonies, and intercede with their mute god to head off or cure diseases, as well as using their divinely granted powers to afflict such upon their enemies.

Jeff

Alzrius · Aug 27, 2012

Not to keep nitpicking at your work, Jeff, but I notice that you have Yurtrus served by, among other creatures, baernaloths.

Given that baernaloths are ancient creatures of pure evil - the original yugoloths - it doesn't seem right that they'd be found in service to a "mere" deity, one whom the baernaloths likely predate by epochs.

AuldDragon · Aug 27, 2012

Alzrius said:
Not to keep nitpicking at your work, Jeff, but I notice that you have Yurtrus served by, among other creatures, baernaloths.

Given that baernaloths are ancient creatures of pure evil - the original yugoloths - it doesn't seem right that they'd be found in service to a "mere" deity, one whom the baernaloths likely predate by epochs.

That seems to have been an addition to the game after 2nd edition. While Baernaloths are quite mysterious in 2nd ed, they are also physically the weakest of the Greater Yugoloths, so based on that canon, there's no reason some wouldn't serve an Intermediate Deity. There are some theories mentioned in the MC entry, but that's all they are: theories.

I'll be honest: I strongly dislike a lot of what was introduced regarding deities and planar creatures in post-2nd edition. I don't have many books where such things were detailed anyway, so I'm simply ignoring it. I'm writing these primarily from the point of 2nd edition, and what was known at the time of the publication of other god books, based on that, I think

And thanks for reading and thinking about the entries enough to nitpick! I genuinely appreciate it.

Jeff

Alzrius · Aug 28, 2012

AuldDragon said:
That seems to have been an addition to the game after 2nd edition. While Baernaloths are quite mysterious in 2nd ed, they are also physically the weakest of the Greater Yugoloths, so based on that canon, there's no reason some wouldn't serve an Intermediate Deity. There are some theories mentioned in the MC entry, but that's all they are: theories.

I haven't read my Second Edition materials in a very long time, but from what I recall the baernaloths were introduced in Hellbound: The Blood War. I do recall them being not that impressive in terms of their stats, but the only NPC baernaloth we meet - Daru ib Shamiq, presented in that boxed sets adventure - sets the tone that they're incredibly ancient masterminds of evil, dangerous for what they know rather than their physical might.

But then again, it's been well over a decade since I read the material; we'd need the input of someone with greater familiarity than I...

Paging [MENTION=11697]Shemeska[/MENTION]

I'll be honest: I strongly dislike a lot of what was introduced regarding deities and planar creatures in post-2nd edition. I don't have many books where such things were detailed anyway, so I'm simply ignoring it. I'm writing these primarily from the point of 2nd edition, and what was known at the time of the publication of other god books, based on that, I think

I do appreciate that you're sticking purely to 2E. Second Edition was the last time that D&D placed a strong focus on the in-game course of events; everything after that was all mechanics, mechanics, mechanics.

And thanks for reading and thinking about the entries enough to nitpick! I genuinely appreciate it.

It's my pleasure, since I think your work on this series is truly superlative.

Shemeska · Aug 28, 2012

AuldDragon said:
That seems to have been an addition to the game after 2nd edition. While Baernaloths are quite mysterious in 2nd ed, they are also physically the weakest of the Greater Yugoloths, so based on that canon, there's no reason some wouldn't serve an Intermediate Deity. There are some theories mentioned in the MC entry, but that's all they are: theories.

One of the key things regarding the 'loths however was their utter antipathy towards gods. Hellbound came out and stated that no yugoloths become clerics, and if any have, they're hunted down as outcasts - the whole 'godless yugoloths' was a striking point for them. Additionally, they take their hatred of gods to a pretty striking level given that they carved Khin-Oin from the spine of a god they killed (though the precise history here doesn't state if the younger 'loths did it, or the elder baernaloths).

I'd never consider placing a baern as a deific servitor unless its intent was to corrupt and destroy the fiend, and it likely wouldn't make its presence known in the process if it could avoid it.

As for the mechanical weakness in their 2e stats, it's a strange thing since it doesn't match well with what they as a race were said to have done, and Daru Ib Shamiq was capable of things in 'Squaring the Circle' in the Hellbound box set that by the stats, he shouldn't have been able to do (creating the ghost yugoloth).

The way I personally approach the issue is that the 2e stats represent those baernaloths who have long-since succumbed to the wasting and spiritual decay of the Waste. I'd use a different set of statistics (or none at all) for those who haven't, such as the baernaloths among The Demented who are still active and spinning plans hatched long before the first gods and first mortals evolved.

AuldDragon · Aug 28, 2012

Shemeska said:
One of the key things regarding the 'loths however was their utter antipathy towards gods. Hellbound came out and stated that no yugoloths become clerics, and if any have, they're hunted down as outcasts - the whole 'godless yugoloths' was a striking point for them. Additionally, they take their hatred of gods to a pretty striking level given that they carved Khin-Oin from the spine of a god they killed (though the precise history here doesn't state if the younger 'loths did it, or the elder baernaloths).

I'd never consider placing a baern as a deific servitor unless its intent was to corrupt and destroy the fiend, and it likely wouldn't make its presence known in the process if it could avoid it.

As for the mechanical weakness in their 2e stats, it's a strange thing since it doesn't match well with what they as a race were said to have done, and Daru Ib Shamiq was capable of things in 'Squaring the Circle' in the Hellbound box set that by the stats, he shouldn't have been able to do (creating the ghost yugoloth).

The way I personally approach the issue is that the 2e stats represent those baernaloths who have long-since succumbed to the wasting and spiritual decay of the Waste. I'd use a different set of statistics (or none at all) for those who haven't, such as the baernaloths among The Demented who are still active and spinning plans hatched long before the first gods and first mortals evolved.

I skimmed through Hellbound (I've never read it before; I don't really care for such metaplots as the yugoloths as orchestrators of the Blood War or the Asmodeus/Ahrimann plot in Guide to Hell) and found the reference to yugoloth priests. One thing to point out is that the servitor creatures in the Other Manifestations are not priests; since yugoloths are mercenaries, I don't see any reason they wouldn't hire themselves out to a divinity willing to pay. In addition, by canon, yugoloths serve Laduguer, Deep Duerra, and Hextor in particular; all three are just listed as "yugoloths," so any power level (short of existing unique named individuals) can appear as servitors.

Honestly, the lack of mention of the Oinoloth or the other unique Abyssal Lord-equivalents (such as Anthraxus) really makes me wonder if the Baernaloths were created as a replacement. I know the Oinoloths were detailed in a Dragon Annual, but I haven't read that article in a while.

However, even taking the ancientness of Baernaloths as a rumor as I would in a personal campaign, I see why it would seem odd that they would serve Yurtrus, so I've removed it from my master document.

Jeff

Shemeska · Aug 28, 2012

AuldDragon said:
One thing to point out is that the servitor creatures in the Other Manifestations are not priests; since yugoloths are mercenaries, I don't see any reason they wouldn't hire themselves out to a divinity willing to pay. In addition, by canon, yugoloths serve Laduguer, Deep Duerra, and Hextor in particular; all three are just listed as "yugoloths," so any power level (short of existing unique named individuals) can appear as servitors.

Oh understandable. Give a 'loth enough of what it wants and it'll do anything you want till the sudden but inevitable betrayal. They've got the unique dichotomy going on of being both complete paragons of selfish self-interest and slavish supplicants to abstract Evil, and 'Faces of Evil' has some really nice exploration of the topic in its intro to the 'loth chapter.

I don't see a problem with a 'loth selling its services, but that's the key there that it's selling its services rather than following a divinity or worshiping them. But I'd argue that the higher up the yugoloth chain that you go, the less likely they are to be able to stomach helping a divinity. Ultroloths, unique yugoloths, and baern are probably not going to be found doing so, but everything below them probably quite a bit of it.

Honestly, the lack of mention of the Oinoloth or the other unique Abyssal Lord-equivalents (such as Anthraxus) really makes me wonder if the Baernaloths were created as a replacement. I know the Oinoloths were detailed in a Dragon Annual, but I haven't read that article in a while.

I'm not sure, though it might be cool to ask Colin at some point his perspective on this, and what the design directive at TSR was at the time. The baernaloth entry describes the Demented as serving as advisors to the highest ultroloths, the Oinoloth, and the General of Gehenna - and I've usually seen their advice as something those 'loths receive whether they want it or not. Almost like secular kings being beholden to the edicts of the clergy, which the baern in a way represent in my conception of them.

Man, it'd be fun to do a piece on them at some point (some baern stuff got cut from the recent Demonomicon piece I did).

AuldDragon · Sep 10, 2012

Dakarnok the Raider

The small kobold pantheon is filled with a number of local deified heroes and minor gods, few of which are genuine powers. Of those that have, Dakarnok the Raider is by far the most powerful and widely known. He has become the deity of kobold warriors, focusing on destruction and plunder.

Jeff