Pathfinder 1E Madness in Pathfinder

My current group has been together for a few years. We started with 1st edition AD&D and moved on to 4E as soon as it came out. We've been playing 4E ever since, but me and some of my players have begun to grow quite tired of its structure and overall theme (the rest of the group loves it). We are just starting a new campaign set in the 2nd Edition AD&D Ravenloft setting, using the Call of Cthulhu rules set, but I was interested in other systems for future use, so I started looking around.

Lo and behold, before long I had acquired a copy of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, and I love it! I am seriously leaning towards using this as our next system, but had a couple tweaks which I wanted to make.

I am a big fan of gothic and/or gritty and realistic horror (with a lean towards Lovecraft, Shelley, and Stoker) and tend to incorporate elements of this into my campaigns. Flipping through the Pathfinder rules, the flavor text at the start opf the chapters leapt out at me; it seems to me to focus on a less blindly heroic feel, and more on a slightly more realistic approach to situations than found in the flavor text of , say, Dungeons and Dragons. Also, it seems to hint at horror (at least to me) in some of the text.

To this end, I am considering manufacturing a sanity system for use with the game, based primarily off of the Fear, Horror, and Madness checks of 2nd Edition Ravenloft. I still have to dig through the rulebook a bit, but I was thinking that it might add a bit more of a role-playing focus to sessions (as it sure seemed to, switching from 4E to CoC). I was thinking of using Fear checks (the least serious) for events such as separation, confusion, death of party members/friends, etc. Horror checks (slightly more grievous) would be used for encounters with Undead, Devils, unnatural creatures, magic affecting the actions/goals of yourself or those you know closely, etc. Finally, I was thinking of using Madness only for major villains/monsters in the campaign whose mere presence seems to shatter the characters long held beliefs of the world.

Horror checks would have a chance to leave long-lasting effects if failed (such as phobias or mental disorders), whilst failed madness checks would always leave these mental scars.

I'll post more once I've had a chance to further explore the limits and guides of the system.

Paizo has a small section that might be of use to you in the Gamemastery Guide. Thanks to them making their rules open, you can take a look here.

Between existing conditions (confused, nauseated, stunned and so on) and these nastier conditions, you may be able to cobble together something formal for your campaign.

There are Sanity and Madness rules in the Gamemastery Guide- page 250, in "Advanced Topics." If you don't have that book yet, you can also conveniently read them online at d20pfsrd.com.

That's a good site to know about in general, actually, as you'll see when you go there, since they keep up-to-date with the newest releases (it took them a while to incorporate the stuff from the Advanced Player's Guide but they did do it- and that book's chock-full of stuff anyway so the delay is understandable).

EDIT: Ninja'ed! Your handle is appropriate, Anguish!

The sanity rules listed here seem a little... sparse, but maybe that's just me. I am a little unwilling to use a system which restricts itself as much as this official one, since I feel insanity can be as effective/integral as damage, and as such deserves a slightly more robust system.

My idea with incorporating the fear and madness saves, etc allows for momentary insanity, slightly longer lasting insanity, and (possibly) permanent insanity.

I'll attempt to put up a slightly more collected outline of my idea (unfortunately still without many rules-specific references, as today I'm prepping for tomorrow's game) later tonight.

Aspect of Veles said:

My idea with incorporating the fear and madness saves, etc allows for momentary insanity, slightly longer lasting insanity, and (possibly) permanent insanity.

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The Freeport Companion for Pathfinder (from Green Ronin) does something similar to what you are proposing for it's Insanity system.

Each encounter with something mind-shattering (aberrations, certain spell effects, some undead, particularly gruesome scenes) gives you some insanity points, and you can get rid of them either via magical healing, mundane 'therapy' via the Heal skill, or by 'buying madness.' A short term episode of madness lasts 1d10+something rounds, and only buys off a point or two, a longer-term freakout lasts (IIRC) 1d10x10 rounds, and buys off a little more, and a permanant form of madness buys off a larger amount.

For each point of Insanity you have, your Wisdom is treated as lower for the purposes of skills and saves, but higher for spell DCs and possibly bonus spells (book not at hand, so just making stuff up now...).

(If I were to use their system as written, I'd make two changes.

1) The 'benefit from madness' feature that allows Insanity to add to Wisdom for spell DCs would be a feat or class ability for Cultists or Madness Domain clerics or whatever, and not a general feature for anyone.

2) You couldn't spend Insanity to gain a temporary bout of madness in a non-critical / challenging situation. None of this, 'I lock myself in my room and have a little freakout' to buy off some Insanity points. It would have to be spent in a situation where it could be detrimental or even dangerous, such as in a social setting, or during combat.)

That sounds a little bit closer to what I was thinking, but since I don't have that, I think I may attempt to forge on the path I had, at least until I can get ahold of the specific book you referenced.

This is roughly what I was thinking;

The DM decides beforehand what situations in his/her game will warrant Fear, Horror, or Madness saves. Then he/she denotes DCs for specific situations depending upon their severity. All three types of saves would be Will saves.

In the effect of a failed Fear save, the DM rolls on a table similar to the following with a D6 (imposing bonuses/penalties depending on the situation) or chooses an effect which seems appropriate to the situation. Each of these effects would have certain role-playing and game-play guidelines.

1. Fumble next roll/Drop held items
2. 1d10 rounds minus Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) rounds of catatonia
3. Hysterics
4. Character staggers and falls to the ground in shock
5. An intense desire to hide from the triggering creature/etc
6.Character feels a need to flee the scene
7. Character faints
8. Make a Horror Save
9. Make a Madness Save
10. System Shock (severe trauma possibly leading to death)

Horror Saves work in a similar fashion;

1. Make a Fear Save
2. Character flees
3. Character suffers nightmares for an amount of time determined by the DM
4. The character cannot stand the sight/presence of items/creatures/events even remotely similar to that which offended his preconceptions
5. The character constantly references the event and is unable to drive it from their mind
6. The character is overtaken with bestial rage and charges at the offending object/creature, not resting till it is destroyed. There is also a risk here that he will turn on his companions
7. Mental Shock (serious trauma resulting in permanent loss of points in certain ability scores)
8. Character becomes fascinated/enamored with the subject and will do anything to experience/view/come into contact with/etc again
9. Make a Madness Check
10. System Shock (higher chance of death than with Fear)

Madness again works in a similar fashion;

1. Make a Horror Save
2. Depression
3. Catatonia for a number of hours/days (or longer!)
4. Delusions (of grandeur/etc - tailor to the situation or character)
5. Hallucinations
6. Schizophrenia
7. Paranoia
8. Amnesia (could be short term or longer term - even the character's entire life before that moment!)
9. Multiple Personalities
10. System Shock (nearly certain death)

All situations requiring saves should be tailored for each character - the same situation which drives a Fighter into fits of spastic convulsions may do no more than bat the eye of a Wizard or Sorcerer. The effects themselves should also be tailored to fit the situation/character and role-playing should be highly encouraged.

These charts are slightly changed versions of the charts in Domains of Dread from 2nd Edition AD&D, but once I get a chance to more fully look at the rules I'll be expanding upon it and altering it.

While I didn't see anything about an enhanced madness system, the latest Pathfinder Adventure Path is about Gothic horror, and the first chapter has good reviews.

This sounds like an interesting idea, the only real problems I can forsee lead to hillarious role playing

ex: The infernal bloodline sorceress goes up to the devil you put in and say "Hi Dad"

I could go on, but that will just ruin it when your players do it but yeah, mostly you will just have to consider the personalities of your players and what they are playing.

the ranger or inquisitor coming up on stuff it has read about and studied for the first time may need a will save or a new pair of pants but after that, shouldn't have much of a problem ever dealing emotionally with things of that nature (exceptions abound)