Themes... what are they?

Argyle King · Apr 12, 2011

I've seen 'themes' mentioned a few times in reference to D&D characters. A lot of people seem to be excited about Heroes of Shadow possibly having more; me, I have no idea what they are.

What are themes?

WalterKovacs · Apr 12, 2011

Johnny3D3D said:
I've seen 'themes' mentioned a few times in reference to D&D characters. A lot of people seem to be excited about Heroes of Shadow possibly having more; me, I have no idea what they are.

What are themes?

Themes were introduced in the Dark Sun campaign book (they haven't actually expanded outside of that so far).

It's sort of like a paragon path or epic destiny picked at level 1. You get an encounter attack power at level 1 (which is a bit better than an at-will, but not on par with a full blown encounter power). You also get options for encounter, utiliy and daily powers from 2 through 10 [and some get better if they replace higher level powers] that can be taken instead of your normal class options. You also get access to some feats and paragon paths.

They are sort of an option to show a career or archetype, like gladiator or escaped slave. So far it's pretty geared towards Dark Sun, but people hope to see more of them. The races in Heroes of Shadow have a bit of the themes, since the races provide utilities which can replace class options.

Argyle King · Apr 12, 2011

ok.... so kind of like Backgrounds, but implemented a little better and throughout the career of the character instead of just at character creation...?

IanB · Apr 12, 2011

Johnny3D3D said:
ok.... so kind of like Backgrounds, but implemented a little better and throughout the career of the character instead of just at character creation...?

I see them as kind of like the non-class multiclasses (Spellscarred, Bravo, etc.) without the feat tax.

Mummolus · Apr 12, 2011

They're really pretty fantastic.

One of the WoTC employees (think it was Trevor) confirmed that there are themes in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting due out later this year, and apparently there are going to be some introduced through Dungeon/Dragon. Right now they're pretty specific to Dark Sun, but that looks to be changing.

fba827 · Apr 12, 2011

think of it (mechanically) as being similar to multiclassing as originally presented in the PHB1. Except, you only have to use a feat slot for the initial multiclass. And then that allows you to freely (without feat cost) powerswap abilities at future levels.

RangerWickett · Apr 12, 2011

Here's a snippet of one from the upcoming ZEITGEIST adventure path.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/columns/304420-zeitgeist-preview-skyseer.html

Aegeri · Apr 12, 2011

Mummolus said:
They're really pretty fantastic.

One of the WoTC employees (think it was Trevor) confirmed that there are themes in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting due out later this year, and apparently there are going to be some introduced through Dungeon/Dragon. Right now they're pretty specific to Dark Sun, but that looks to be changing.

I'd just like to point out that the fact they haven't been added to the game in general is plain criminal in my opinion. They are one of the best things added to 4E over its entire lifespan. I am befuddled that the rest of the system doesn't enjoy them yet.

BEFUDDLED I TELL YOU.

RangerWickett said:
Here's a snippet of one from the upcoming ZEITGEIST adventure path

The encounter power seems a bit odd and I'm not exactly sure what it is supposed to do. I take it the idea is you roll a d20 and then you have to use it for that power later on? I suppose you're trying to have some kind of element of risk to that - so if you use it on a daily then roll badly (like a 1) you basically shoot your daily in the foot if you needed it (and waste your action if you need to use it later on). I don't really like that mechanic at all. I can't see many allies picking that for any power they might actually want to use, especially if they know they won't be able to get a hugely advantageous situation to hit on very low numbers. I think the idea of having a roll for a power, then being able to choose if you use your fixed roll or whatever you got at the time would be interesting. Like a version of elven re-roll (or similar mechanics) that was limited to a specific power and which you rolled ahead of time.

The daily utility it grants is pretty neat and full of interesting flavor (and can be used to nudge PCs in the adventures general direction without feeling artificial - a solid mechanic).

RangerWickett · Apr 12, 2011

Aegeri said:
The encounter power seems a bit odd and I'm not exactly sure what it is supposed to do. I take it the idea is you roll a d20 and then you have to use it for that power later on? I suppose you're trying to have some kind of element of risk to that - so if you use it on a daily then roll badly (like a 1) you basically shoot your daily in the foot if you needed it (and waste your action if you need to use it later on). I don't really like that mechanic at all. I can't see many allies picking that for any power they might actually want to use, especially if they know they won't be able to get a hugely advantageous situation to hit on very low numbers. I think the idea of having a roll for a power, then being able to choose if you use your fixed roll or whatever you got at the time would be interesting. Like a version of elven re-roll (or similar mechanics) that was limited to a specific power and which you rolled ahead of time.

Think of it this way:

Skyseer uses power on the party sorcerer. The sorcerer decides to see how his daily power will turn out. He sees "Crap, if I use it, it'll be a 1."

If the skyseer never used the power, then when the sorcerer actually rolled the attack, he would have missed. Now he knows not to bother, so he can wait until next encounter.

Now of course he can say that rolling the die for the skyseer power won't yield the same result as rolling the die when he actually uses the power, but mathematically it doesn't make a difference. There was a die roll for a power, except that if you add in the skyseer power, you never have to waste an action on a failed die roll.

Also, it might make a few players annoyed at fate and predestination, which fits thematically with the setting.

I think it's more flavorful than just allowing a re-roll.

Aegeri · Apr 12, 2011

I can kind of see your point mechanically, the problem is nobody is likely to use it due to the wording and it won't interact with other means of rerolling (because it states you must use the result). For example mathematically, heroic effort is roughly equivalent to rolling again (roughly, I think an Avengers 2d20 oath of emnity thing is roughly +4ish accuracy mathematically). There are numerous classes who would simply never use this and races as well. Your elven and human allies for example, won't use it on their powers very often and an avenger is never going to use it ever.

I am thinking about this in the context of its similar relative power (for a similar role) Adept's Insight from Dark Sun's Noble Adept. That adds a flat +1 to any roll an ally makes, or with a power point +1d4 or whatever it is. This is a good power and comes in useful more often than I can count.

I do see the point and the flavor is there - but flavor doesn't matter when nobody is going to use it. Minding you, it is a minor thing because the daily utility they also get more than makes up for that. If the weaker encounter is intended to offset also getting the divination like daily for free I can see the intent mechanically there.