What's on your mind?
+ Log in or register to post
Results 1 to 10 of 31
Monday, 16th May, 2011, 08:39 PM #1
4 Hours w/ RSD - Let's Have a Flamewar!
Lets Have a Flamewar!
I have, from time to time, been accused of making comments designed to inflame passions and ignite debate. That may be true to some degree, but when it comes to the art of driving people crazy with terminology, I tip my hat to the people at Global Underwater Explorers.
In the 1980s this group became the stewards of a project designed to map the underground water filled caves of the northern Florida watershed. Cave diving has been called the most dangerous sport in the world – people die doing it every year. Yet something draws divers into those dark underground caverns, and challenges them to go deeper, further, and through more and more hazardous territory as they explore.
As a deep-sea diver myself, I fully understand the lure of this segment of the sport. Something about the attention to detail and precise skills needed to conduct this kind of dive appeals to me (and many others).
As the sport of cave diving matured and took on additional responsibilities like that pioneered by GUE’s Woodville Karst Project in Florida it became increasingly obvious that something needed to be done about the safety factor. To that end, the GUE pioneers and a close circle of associates developed a system of training, gear, dive planning, team diving, and technical gas mixtures they called “Doing It Right”, or DIR for short.
If you would like to see a community of folks combust like a phosphorous flare, tell a bunch of cave divers that by definition they are “Doing It Wrong”. To say the resulting conversations were “heated” would be the understatement of the millennium. As a marketing strategy designed to raise awareness, DIR was brilliant. As a way to bring a community together in pursuit of safer diving, well, it had a mixed result, at best. Echoes of this debate still resonate wherever divers gather to discuss their sport. Because in part the DIR philosophy suggested that safer diving wasn’t something that should be just limited to cave divers but should be a primary goal of divers in every condition.
The Core of Doing It Right
The DIR philosophy focuses on a couple of simple principles:
• Take only as much gear with you as necessary for your safety and the safety of your dive team
• Reduce or eliminate anything on your gear that can create an entanglement hazard
• Plan your dive so that you and your dive team have enough breathing gas to overcome a gear failure at the point of maximum danger – then dive that plan exactly.
Books have been written (and thousands of message board posts exchanged) on elaborating this concept. DIR divers have developed very specific requirements for how they rig every bit of gear they take on a dive – to the extent that such specifications have become almost Talmudic in their detail.
DIR has a lot of benefits to average divers, even those who will never exceed recreational dive limits or enter overhead environments like caves or wrecks.
One side effect of the DIR philosophy is streamlining. DIR divers are very streamlined. In the water they present a very small cross section to the water and thus use much less energy as they swim. Lowered energy consumption means a reduced breathing rate, and that translates into longer dives on the same amount of gas.
Another is an improved safety margin for everyone in the dive team. Recreational divers don’t have a very high fatality rate, but they do have a disturbingly high accident rate. Getting “bent” as an effect of returning to the surface too quickly for the metabolized gas in your body to be naturally released is no fun, and can be very expensive. Adopting DIR style procedures makes it much more likely that even in the case of a catastrophic gear failure (or a catastrophic mental failure like not monitoring your breathing gas consumption) you’ll be able to recover with the aid of your dive team and surface safely. That keeps you in the sport and reduces the negative press the sport gets when a diver gets hurt.
OK Ryan, Get to the Point
You may be asking yourself what this has to do with adding more fun to your 4 hours of roleplaying. At the risk of igniting a miniature version of the cave diving wars, I’ll say that I think that our hobby is pretty universally Doing It Wrong.
There are basically 3 ways people engage in tabletop roleplaying in the current era.
The Standard Game
This is the typical concept that most of us have when we talk about a “gaming group”. The same people gather on a regular basis and play a campaign game where their characters and their adventures are persistent across many sessions.
The One Shot
Sometimes the group wants to try something different, or a player wants to try their hand at being a GM, or an ad hoc gathering of gamers spontaneously decides to break out the dice with no expectation that the session will be persistent. Some games, especially those from the small press / independent gaming community are explicitly designed to be played in single sessions.
The Massively Multiplayer Tabletop Game
Pioneered by the RPGA in the form of its Living Campaigns, and echoed by many successful tabletop RPG publishers (and several independent groups). This format is designed to be played at conventions and in game stores as an “organized play” event. Characters are persistent across sessions but the groups are usually ad hoc.
There are inherent problems with all of these play styles, but I’ll focus specifically on the Standard Game. That’s the format that most people would like to be playing in, and the format that many players have the fondest memories of. It’s also the format that has become the most broken over time.
Pathologies of the Standard Game
The Game Itself Is Too Complex: After just a small number of sessions, most games become extremely complex. Character powers and abilities proliferate. As character power increases, the abilities of their foes also escalate to maintain effective challenges. The net effect is that players and GMs rapidly find themselves in a spiral of decreasing “fun time” as the amount of “work time” grows larger and larger.
Parties Become Interdependent: The more sessions a group of characters play together, the more tightly dependent on one another they become. A wide variety of specialization options allows players to narrowly craft their characters to achieve maximum impact, while relying on other characters to make up for the deficiencies this specialization creates. Rules that enhance and reward these kinds of tactics have also become increasingly common, which further reinforces this interdependency. Of course, the problem is that when (not if) one or more of these characters becomes unavailable, the entire party may find itself seriously compromised. The more interdependent the characters become, the more likely it is that the absence of just a single player can severely limit the actions of the whole group.
Short-timers are discouraged: It is very hard for a player to just “sit in” in a Standard Game. Beyond the beginning power levels a one-shot character may be so complicated to create that the drop in player might spend the entire session just trying to complete a character sheet. Being able to master the abilities and options available in a short time is also hard for many players to do – especially new and inexperienced players of the type that the hobby needs to encourage to replenish itself as older experienced gamers lapse.
GM aspirations exceed their abilities: Time after time, GMs invest massive amounts of time in creating backstories, plots, characters, monsters, and environments for their players to encounter, only to find only a small amount of that content is ever used in actual play. Worse, a GM may induce the players to similarly invest a lot of time in character development and attention to detail, only to let everyone down as real-life pressures make it impossible to deliver the full vision that the campaign began with. GMs are subtly pressured into this situation by the actions of the publishers who present massive tomes of richly detailed campaign settings and establish a mental bar for what people think is expected of anyone who creates their own world.
Plot replaces Story: A related trap that many GMs (and some players) fall into is trying to develop a plot – that is, a pre-determined framework around which the players are supposed to build a story. This creates the feeling of being railroaded which players hate. It creates frustration for GMs when clues aren’t followed, events are encountered out of order, or characters wander off into the wilds. GMs feel a subtle pressure to deliver this kind of experience from the plethora of novels featuring their favorite game worlds, and the computerized RPGs which seem to deliver this kind of game effortlessly.
Doing It Right on the Tabletop
Here’s some general rules of thumb on how to improve the way we play the Standard Game:
• Bring only as much material as necessary to play the game session
• Encourage characters to be generalists
• Welcome players who can only drop in for one session
• Make the game about the basic story of the genre
Limiting the Game Material
How many of you have a bag (or box) filled with books that you lug to every game session? How many regularly take more than 5 books with you even when you’re just a player and have no GM responsibilities?
This is crazy. There’s no way to actually use all that content in a single 4 hour session. Finding anything in that mass of documentation requires one to have a near perfect memory for where desired information is transcribed.
I happened to pick up a copy of the Dungeons & Dragons Rules Compendium at the bookstore out of curiosity. This is a 320 page book. It is aimed at new players.
For comparison, I got out my copy of the Dungeons & Dragons blue book from the old beginner boxed set. 48 pages. Has the game really been improved in the past 30 years by adding 272 pages of content to the material we expect a new player to use?
I say no. I say that the first step we have to do is prune the tree of the game system and get back to something reasonable in terms of the rules as written.
EN World spontaneously generated a clever way to address this problem: E6. You can read about it here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html
E6, in brief, puts a cap on characters of 6th level. That cap has significant ramifications that reflect the goal of limiting the game material. It smashes the number of spells that need to be referenced. It minimizes the ability trees of the monsters the party encounters which helps the GM stay effective.
Encourage Characters to be Generalists
If your party consists of one character who does all the healing, one character who deals with all the traps, one character who fights the toughest opponent, and one character who uses area of effect damage to deal with lots of grunt enemies, you probably play in a Standard Game.
Like a well-oiled machine, this party has mastered the art of adventuring. They proceed from encounter to encounter with vigor – knocking out any challenge they’re capable of defeating and taking the resulting phat loot and XP with aplomb.
What happens when any one of those characters doesn’t show up? Total party kill, in my experience. Or total party shopping expedition, as the players recognize they’re not going to prevail in the adventure and instead spend the time dealing with their gear, their training, and interviewing townspeople for rumors.
Here’s an interesting bit of nostalgia. Remember the old 1st and 2nd Edition system for demihumans? They could be multiclassed characters and humans could only be single (or dual) classed. The advantages of demihumans were strong, and lots of people played them despite the limits built into the system on their power (mostly ignored in the breach, of course). All those multi-classed demihumans gave the game a resiliency that the modern game can lack. D20 multiclassing was designed to encourage this kind of character development but in practice what players use it for is to become ultra-specialized rather than broadly competent. In making multiclassing more flexible, we inadvertently created a feedback loop of character interdependency.
As GMs there are ways to address this. Even in the E6 system the general idea that characters should be less specialized can be implemented. Bring back demihuman multiclassing – just require demihumans to alternate levels between two or three pre-selected classes. That’s a good balance with the benefits that demihumans get in the E6 system vs the humans. Let the human characters multiclass at will, and suddenly you’ll have many more broadly competent characters and groups that are far less fragile.
We’d Love To Have You Join Us!
Make your game as welcoming to one-shot players as possible. As a GM, always have a couple of good characters ready to give people who want to drop in on your game. It’s easiest to give them characters that do simple things like fight or heal. Discourage drop in players from taking more complicated roles like arcane spellcasters.
Give Them That Character When They Leave! It seems obvious, but it's easy to forget: you’re far more likely to come back and play again if you have some connection to the game. Worst case, you’ve given away a character that could be cloned instantly and put back into your file of drop-in PCs. Best case, you may have planted a seed that will blossom into a new tabletop roleplaying gamer!
I’ll write more in a future column about experienced players with pre-existing characters who want to drop in on your game, but for now I’ll just say that it’s far more likely to be beneficial to your group to allow it than to make it a hassle.
The Power Of The Core Story
If you have a Dungeons & Dragons game, make it about dungeons, exploration, small battles against monstrous foes, getting cool magic items, and leveling up.
If you have a Vampire: The Masquerade game, make it about the struggle to retain a shred of humanity as a monstrous creature of darkness living in a society of predators obsessed with station and power.
If you have a Star Wars game, make it about the struggle of the good Rebels against the vastly overpowered evil Empire, as seen through the eyes of a group of galactic adventurers.
If you’re running a Champions game, make it about exciting superhero fights and dramatic life & death decisions against a background of wonder and amazement.
In other words, figure out what the “core story” is of the game you’re playing, and stick as closely to that story as you can. There are games out there for virtually any core story you want to play. Rather than trying to bend a game to fit a story of your choosing, choose a game that embodies that story intrinsically. Both you, and your players, will find the experience greatly enhanced.
Core stories also help the Power Gamers and the Thinkers get quickly involved in the game. They are less interested in the elaborate world you’ve built than the immediate challenges you’re presenting. These games have achieved multi-decade success because the core stories they embody are intrinsically popular with huge populations of players. Take advantage of that vested wisdom.
Next month I’m going to talk about a holistic approach to integrating these principles into your gaming hobby. I’m also interested in hearing about ways you’ve streamlined your own games – especially non-D20 game systems – in the mode of the E6 system.
--RSD / Atlanta, April 2011
Last edited by Morrus; Thursday, 26th May, 2011 at 07:19 PM.Ryan S. Dancey
Tuesday, 17th May, 2011, 07:47 PM #2
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
Interesting concept. I have new players that like to get new options books, however. I wonder how they'd react if we limited books instead of allowing new books?
Also, I wonder if we allow drop in players and they enjoy it but then you don't have room for them, what happens? Hopefully you could get them into another game, but I could see someone getting upset if they showed up for one game and weren't welcomed back. I think you'd need to be very sure the player(s) knew how many games they might get to play in.
On the other hand, I'm all for not lugging so many books around. And if I could go several months without the minis and mats that'd be great.
Tuesday, 17th May, 2011, 08:20 PM #3
Myrmidon (Lvl 10)
"I say no."
I say yes. See how subjective this is?
The only DIR is everyone on the table having a good time. Rest is up for negotiation.
Tuesday, 17th May, 2011, 08:44 PM #4
Guide (Lvl 11)
Tuesday, 17th May, 2011, 10:04 PM #5
Defender (Lvl 8)
Wow. I disagree with most of what you have to say here Ryan, and the rest, I don't really have a basis for comparison. Your experiences seem to be very different from my own.
While I agree that the game could use simpler rules, game complexity is rarely an issue. My group's longstanding process is to go with what the DM decides when in doubt, and look it up during the next break. I have yet to hear anyone complain about new powers, feats, etc. had to be learned upon leveling.
For the most part the interdependence doesn't matter because everyone makes an effort to attend every week. The rare times we do have someone bail, we usually press forward with no major issues (the absent player gets ribbed the following week about not even being missed). The exception being when multiple people are out or the missing person is integral to the plot (as in we're taking on that character's nemesis).
The short timer issue has never come up for me. I don't have a lot of opportunity for random guest stars dropping by wanting to play for a session. Honestly, I don't know enough gamers for that, and I still play with all the ones I care to (that still live in the country).
As for the GM workload, I enjoy doing it so it's no biggie if it doesn't get used. But frankly after all these years, I'm pretty good at knowing what will get used (or recycled), so seldom are my efforts in wasted.
Railroad vs. Sandbox generally isn't an issue either. I know my players, and I can usually anticipate what they'll do, and when they surprise me... I roll with it. I played for years without any prepared materials, I made it all up on the fly, so again, no big deal.
None the less, as has already been stated, the only real way of "doing it right" is when everyone is having fun, and that's never been an issue.
Tuesday, 17th May, 2011, 10:39 PM #6
Myrmidon (Lvl 10)
- Join Date
- Apr 2003
- Portland, Oregon
- Read 20 Reviews
ø Ignore Alphastream
I like that unlike previous posts you provided non-inflammatory ideas for improving the game. A lot of your comments and advice are sound.
To be honest I don't see the benefit to half of what you wrote. The whole diver story, the title of "let's have a flamewar"... these aspects to me detracted from the rest of the useful post. I suspect many will say "too long, didn't read" or simple be turned off by the title and the way it starts out.
Really, what is the point in your writing about those aspects? Are you wanting a flame war? There should be no flame war and there is no reason for at all saying someone is doing it wrong. People having fun aren't doing it wrong.
Sure, many of the aspects you mentioned are detrimental in various ways. At the same time, for many these same aspects are part of what makes RPGs so worth playing. Complexity is a prime example: gamers love complexity. There is a reason (ok, several) why 99% of us aren't playing OD&D.
I think most of your post could be recast as ways to run a campaign so they are both fun for the group and also grow the hobby and retain interest. This would have reached out to different players better and encouraged a better discussion. Story-driven is fantastic. Encouraging new players is fantastic. Having a proper economic model for RPGs is wonderful. Can we really envision a flame war to any of that? We can promote ways to do these things without labeling anyone's play as "doing it wrong" or even "doing it right". We can do it without begging for a flame war.
Wednesday, 18th May, 2011, 08:17 PM #7
Funnily enough, today and elsewhere, I answered the question "Why isn't Call of Cthulhu more popular than it is?" by pointing to
I find it particularly interesting the statement from the summary of the survey that:
All (emphasis mine) of the people who indicated a strong interest in RPGs identified eight "core values" that they look for in the RPG experience. These 8 core values are more important than the segments; that is, if these 8 things aren't present in the play experience it won't matter if the game generally supports a given segment's interests - the players will find the experience dissatisfying. These 8 core values are:
Strong Characters and Exciting Story
Complexity Increases over Time
Requires Strategic Thinking
Add on sets/New versions available
- Complexity Increases over Time
Requires Strategic Thinking
Add on sets/New versions available
Hence, CoC doesn't align itself with the desires af a large section of gamers and so is not highly commercially successful.
However, I also think that pushing D&D to fulfill these latter needs - and how well MTG worked to do this too - has been detrimental to roleplaying as a whole as D&D painted itself into a particular hobby corner. I think the article above indicates this - especially on the complexity front.
Also - and I know I'm going to be irritating by saying this - but a lot of people are going to look at this and reply well those values do apply to me. (see replies above already). But, of course they are likely to your presence here is a statement that you almost certainly fit the dominant mode.
Last edited by Anselyn; Wednesday, 18th May, 2011 at 08:18 PM. Reason: listing a listAnáil nathrach, ortha bháis is beatha, do chéal déanaimh
- Complexity Increases over Time
Wednesday, 18th May, 2011, 10:50 PM #8
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
- Join Date
- Aug 2004
- Read 12 Reviews
ø Ignore delericho
I was with you right up to "Core Story".
Having just guided a group of near-novices through the process of 3e character creation, I'm fairly strongly convinced that even at its simplest, this edition is needlessly and uselessly complex in places. (4e is a bit better, but not much.)
So, yeah, I agree with that.
However, I don't agree with your "Core Story" notion. For me, the principle value of simplifying the game is so I can get "the work" parts out of the equation so I can focus on "the story" parts of it - but that value is negated if I then limit myself to a "Core Story". This is especially true since I specifically don't want to have to change games often for lots of different stories - unlearning and relearning the rules is a real pain (especially if there are lots of minor changes - something the d20 games tended to be particularly bad for).
Saturday, 21st May, 2011, 12:21 PM #9
Acolyte (Lvl 2)
I agree with the post, and its something I've been struggling with in my own game. I've dropped d20 and started playing Savage Worlds because of the complexity factor. I'm tired of the hyper-specialized characters and all the time spent on just trying to play the game by the rules.
As to inviting new/one-shot players, we did this in the last session. Two players from another game dropped in and they were able to grab a pre-gen, and get into the game with no problems. They grasped the game within minutes and were playing with not having even looked at the rules book previously.
My goal now is to focus on trying to have the game run without using the character sheets. I want the players to envision the characters acting based on what is going on in the game and using the rules only to adjudicate those actions. I really want to get away from the boardgame and focus on the roleplaying, but I know its going to be an uphill climb. We've spent way too many years looking at the battlemat and our character sheets to determine what we do.
Last edited by Kestrel; Saturday, 21st May, 2011 at 12:29 PM.
Sunday, 22nd May, 2011, 05:38 PM #10
Acolyte (Lvl 2)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- In the wooded hills
- Read 0 Reviews
ø Ignore GameDaddy
Judges Guild recognized the power creep early on as a game breaker. Bob's solution? Change the experience points table to slow the rate that characters gain levels. The result, a basic D&D game that plays very much like an E6 game today.
Another option, especially for the more complex modern games, i.e. 3.x is character multi-classing. Have multi-class characters be the norm and single class characters (and npcs) a rare exception.
Fighter/Clerics Fighter/Thieves Fighter/Wizards or Fighter Sorcerers and wizard/rogue combos make for a much more interesting characters and a much more interesting game. Advanced games use some prestige classes to create this effect, and new prestige classes that round out characters and give them a wider range of abilities will help to create homogenous characters more adept at handling a wide range of characters.
There are plots and storylines that do make it much easier to integrate new and visiting players into a campaign, among these:
The Army Campaign, where the players are marching with a vast Army into unexplored or enemy territory. Each session the players undertake a "new" mission for the commander.
The Extended Family Campaign where the players are members of a clan or tribe. The players have obligations to fulfill for the benefit of the clan, more importantly though, they have obligations to look out for each other.
The Great Migration/Resettlement Campaign, where the players are part of a large group that have traveled into new territories and are exploring, looking for suitable locations to settle in.
Each of these basic storylines lend themselves well to allowing one-shot opportunities for play by new players, and it's also easy to include infrequent but recurring visits by one-shot players that decide to return and participate.
By RyanD in forum General RPG DiscussionReplies: 51Last Post: Saturday, 19th February, 2011, 05:33 PM
By Michael Morris in forum General RPG DiscussionReplies: 79Last Post: Thursday, 26th June, 2008, 04:59 AM
By Michael Morris in forum MetaReplies: 79Last Post: Thursday, 26th June, 2008, 04:59 AM
By D-rock in forum Miscellaneous Geek Talk & Media LoungeReplies: 15Last Post: Tuesday, 16th August, 2005, 06:01 AM
By jmucchiello in forum MetaReplies: 39Last Post: Tuesday, 1st February, 2005, 06:26 PM