Basically correct. A fly spell in 1E lasts 1 turn per level + d6 turns, with the result of the d6 known only by the DM. Most potions lasts 4+d4 turns.
Tomb of Horrors - example of many, or one of a kind?
- Thread starter Bullgrit
- Start date
Basically correct. A fly spell in 1E lasts 1 turn per level + d6 turns, with the result of the d6 known only by the DM. Most potions lasts 4+d4 turns.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
So, given that, how are you expected to be reliably flying throughout the entire dungeon?
the Jester
Legend
Once again: There is no time limit on the Tomb of Horrors.
Just like with any adventure, when the resources you need for success are low, you retreat and replenish. With many adventures, that resource is hit points; here it is the ability to play carefully: fly, divination spells, the right supplies (note the earlier "Nobody has a 10' pole? Let's go back to town!" story in this regard), etc.
Abraxas
Explorer
Unless the Tomb is run tournament style (or with some other time constraint) there is no time limit. There aren't any living creatures to reset stuff. In the forward, it is mentioned that the party will withdraw and rest regularly - in fact it suggests that time between sessions be treated as actual time spent resting.
So, when the fly spells run out you go rest and come back the next day
If you did not run through it this way it becomes significantly more difficult.
Ninja'd by The Jester
So, when the fly spells run out you go rest and come back the next day
If you did not run through it this way it becomes significantly more difficult.
Ninja'd by The Jester
My take might be slightly different - many contemporary players (perhaps most) don't come to a fantasy adventure RPG hoping to solve a puzzle and then easily walk through the scenario. I quite like solving cryptic crosswords, although am not especially good at them - but they're not what I come to D&D to do!
Experience in not what is relevant here - training in a very specific mode of classic D&D play is what is required.
Why would the best players [sblock]stick three swords simultaneously in the slots? What if the party has only two fighters and a scimitar-wielding druid? Does this make them bad players?[/sblock] I think this gets close to dumb luck even for players who are trained in the very specific form of D&D play to which the ToH caters.
The good old 15-minute adventuring day! Back in the first (? - certainly an early) module published by TSR!
I guess this shows that it is not just an artefact of contemporary RPGing.
And we also have flight as the solution to the dungeon. Which combines well with the 15-minute day, assuming that the supply of fly spells is limited.
I agree with this.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
So 3E didn't invent the 15-minute adventuring day, then?
I kid, but it's interesting. I've never really been a huge fan of megadungeons, and resting in them* always seems a bit off to me.
* Or hopping a little ways away, resting, and returning.
EDIT: Hah! Ninja'ed by pemerton; a good place to be!
Last edited:
Abraxas
Explorer
The idea of running it with no time limit may be a significant factor in how people feel about the Tomb.
When I ran it, it was using the pre-generated characters in the back as a one shot, iron man fashion - the TPK occurred due to random die rolls - not because they did something stupid (unless having the scout be 25 feet ahead instead of 30 feet is considered stupid).
In retrospect I should have told the players that we would hand wave resting and any time they chose.
This is one of those things I have always wondered about the way this was run at Cons - did the successful teams say they rested and the DM hand waved it so it used only seconds of their time slot.
Another thing I have wondered is who selected the MU's spells - if the players did, how long did they have to make the choice?
When I ran it, it was using the pre-generated characters in the back as a one shot, iron man fashion - the TPK occurred due to random die rolls - not because they did something stupid (unless having the scout be 25 feet ahead instead of 30 feet is considered stupid).
In retrospect I should have told the players that we would hand wave resting and any time they chose.
This is one of those things I have always wondered about the way this was run at Cons - did the successful teams say they rested and the DM hand waved it so it used only seconds of their time slot.
Another thing I have wondered is who selected the MU's spells - if the players did, how long did they have to make the choice?
Celebrim
Legend
So 3E didn't invent the 15-minute adventuring day, then?
No, it didn't. Which is why I...
a) Became somewhat annoyed with the WotC designers when they erroneously blamed the '15-minute adventuring day' on particular features of 3e.
b) Knew ahead of time that you couldn't fix the '15-minute adventuring day' by changing the rules, any more than you could gaurantee exciting encounter design by changing the rules.
The 15 minute adventuring day is a product of a certain tactical situation, namely:
1) That the PC's are the most active and proactive things in the environment or even the only active and proactive things in the environment
2) There is no real time pressure
3) There is any resource whatsoever which is consumable and may require time to replenish whether it is hit points, healing surges, or simply ammo.
Generally speaking, I never have games with 15 minute adventuring days regardless of system because I tend to have proactive villains that will hunt down the PC's with whatever resources that they have or who will themselves replenish and repair using whatever time they are given. This is the lesson of Ravenloft versus other modules. A proactive villain makes a module much more dangerous than one that is passive, and its true whether you are talking kobolds or powerful spellcasters. It's therefore necessary for the PC's to press on while they have the advantage and seize as much of the moment as possible. Likewise, I tend to have a combination of hard and soft time limits. If the PC's don't disrupt the villains enough, bad things will eventually happen. So the PC's have to keep applying pressure to the villains. They can't wait as long as they might like at every oppurtunity. And even without clear time limits, the world around them keeps living. New events keep happening. So, I almost never have 15 minute adventuring days. Those people who tended to have 15 minute adventuring days in 3e would with the same players tend to experience the 4e equivalent unless either they or their players changed their play style.
The 4e equivalent logic is, why risk going into an encounter in the ToH without dailies and full healing surges? The answer is either, 'Because it's not very stylish', or else, 'Why not?'
This seems to posit a lack of interdependence of play style and rules, at least as far as the domain of the 15 minute adventuring day is concerned.
My view is that there is in fact a high degree of interdependence here. Part of the evidence for my belief is that the group I play with, in changing rules from Rolemaster to 4e, has dropped the 15-minute adventuring day style, and that this is clearly attributable to a host of rule differences between RM and 4e, mostly relating to various aspects of action resolution but also relating to encounter design and the way that the rules deal with issues of authority over the ingame situation, and the relation of that to action resolution and GM force.
How would resting go if not handwaved? Are you thinking about random encounters?
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