What would the Lord of Nightmares be?

push22

First Post
My group recently achieved epic levels and our DM implemented Immortals rules, which I can say are working out really well.

Our setting is roughly based on Slayers which is itself probably based on D&D. The immortals handbook really lets us express the power of these higher level beings. That being said we would really like to know what the Lord of Nightmares would be classified as in your book. Here's a link that roughly describes its properties.

List of Slayers characters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Given that you rated the Cthulhu outer gods as Sidereals we thought maybe she could be a First One of entropy. But as every book written by the author (and there are over dozen) are directly tied to her, this might invoke the different campaign settings property hence making her a very large High Lord, which also meshes with the lack of alignment. What do you guys think?
 

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Hey there push22! :)

push22 said:
My group recently achieved epic levels and our DM implemented Immortals rules, which I can say are working out really well.

Nice to hear of more immortal play ongoing. :)

Our setting is roughly based on Slayers which is itself probably based on D&D. The immortals handbook really lets us express the power of these higher level beings.

Glad thats working out for you. :eek:

That being said we would really like to know what the Lord of Nightmares would be classified as in your book. Here's a link that roughly describes its properties.

List of Slayers characters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sounds like my kind of thing - surprised I am unfamiliar with it.

Given that you rated the Cthulhu outer gods as Sidereals we thought maybe she could be a First One of entropy. But as every book written by the author (and there are over dozen) are directly tied to her, this might invoke the different campaign settings property hence making her a very large High Lord, which also meshes with the lack of alignment. What do you guys think?

Well it sounds like the key was in the description where the Lord of Nightmares is refered to as a Demiurge and creator of the Universe. Thus Demiurge seems like the most appropriate.

However the description gives multiple possible origins. Linking with both Nightmares and Oblivion. Which suggests Thought and Entropy. So my suggestion would be that its a Demiurge where the two dominant forces in the Universe were Thought and Entropy. You could say that it created the other first ones (Time, Matter, Spirit, Fate), but holds the power of the other two first ones itself.

Does that make sense?
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
This really reminds me of my old promise to myself to some day sit down and watch the entire Slayers series. It was one of the first anime I ever discovered, but to date I've only seen the first half of the first series, the entire second series, and a handful of the movies.

Hence, there's probably some aspects of the Lord of Nightmares that I'm not familiar with. That said, it's clearly more than a deity (being the progenitor of Seiphied, the king of the gods), so at the very least it's a sidereal.

Demiurge does sound appropriate, but bear in mind that probably means you'll need to ignore the text about demiurges being incomplete time lords who need to slay sidereals to reconstitute themselves.
 

push22

First Post
to date I've only seen the first half of the first series, the entire second series, and a handful of the movies.

The meta joke about the second season is that the DM (Lord of Nightmares) realized her clever monster just caused a TPK and had to wave away all the bad stuff that happened with DM fiat.

Thus Demiurge seems like the most appropriate.

Well it seems we've limited it to the Eternal tier of beings then. The wiki left out some details like her tendency to break the fourth wall and argue with / beat up the author so we may have her statted out as much higher with Demiurge as a recommended minimum.

One more question though; how do avatars and aspects of Highlords work and what does "4 divine categories lower" mean for something like that?
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
One more question though; how do avatars and aspects of Highlords work and what does "4 divine categories lower" mean for something like that?

To be clear, "High Lords" are those characters with two or more applications of the Time Lord template.

Having said that, the methods for designing avatars and aspects in Ascension can seem tricky at first glance. This is because each "divine category" - which is, basically, each template (e.g. the difference between an intermediate deity and a greater deity is one divine category) - is an increase by one order of magnitude, in terms of quintessence necessary to attain that level of divinity.

In other words, the minimum level of quintessence you need to reach the next divine category is ten times the minimum amount of quintessence necessary to maintain your current divine category. An intermediate deity needs at least 10 million quintessence, whereas a greater deity needs at least 100 million quintessence.

So why does that matter? Because the rules for avatars state that the deity gives up 10% of their quintessence to make one...but the avatar is two divine categories lower than their parent deity. The problem here is the implicit assumption that the avatar has the entirety of that sacrificed 10%.

If that were so, then a greater deity with 200 million quintessence (notice how a god that's at their minimum quintessence for their divine category can't make an avatar without dropping down a divine category; 10% of their quintessence is a lot to spend) would be busted down to 180 million, and the avatar would have the remaining 20 million, being an intermediate deity.

But that would only be one divine category lower than the parent deity, not two. In order to be two divine categories lower, the avatar must have only 1% of their parent deity's quintessence - meaning that avatar should have only 2 million quintessence, and thus be a lesser deity.

So, how do you resolve this apparent conflict? The answer is in Ascension, but it's rather well hidden.

Several sections talk about how moving quintessence from one person/object to another is only 10% efficient (e.g. "The Power," "The Petition," and "The Bargain"). It's important to remember that this holds true for creating avatars and aspects, too.

A deity expends 10% of its quintessence to create an avatar, but of that amount, 90% is lost, leaving only 10% of that invested 10% - which comes out to 1% of the parent deity's total quintessence - for the new avatar's total quintessence. This, in turn, is always two divine categories lower than it's parent, making everything match up.

This is exactly the same for aspects as it is for avatars, just that the percentages are smaller.

So, let's say we had a High Lord that was a tetrad (it had the Time Lord template stacked on it four times), that had a healthy 4.6 quadrillion quintessence (e.g. 4,600,000,000,000,000 quintessence), and wanted to create an avatar. It'd expend 460 trillion quintessence to do so (leaving it with only 4.14 quadrillion quintessence), and the resulting avatar would only have 46 trillion quintessence...enough to be a rank II demiurge, which is two divine categories below the Time Lord template (which is really what a High Lord is, just multiple times over).

When calculating what divine template an avatar or aspect should have, always calculate it's quintessence using this method and apply the appropriate template. It should always have the avatar using a template two divine categories lower than the parent deity, and the aspect using one four divine categories lower than the parent deity.

Hopefully, that answered more questions than it raised. ;)
 

push22

First Post
Oh I see so making avatars is really no different than just transferring quintessence to others and should just be done on a case by case basis.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Oh I see so making avatars is really no different than just transferring quintessence to others and should just be done on a case by case basis.

I was saying that a deity making an avatar gives up 10% of its quintessence, to make an avatar with 1% of the parent deity's total quintessence, and is thus two divine categories lower.

In other words, don't worry about the "divine category" rule so much as just figure out what sort of god 1% of the parent god's quintessence is, and go from there.
 

paradox42

First Post
I've seen all three Slayers series myself (have 'em on VHS), so I'm confident in saying that both First One of Entropy and Demiurge work for the Lord of Nightmares- you could argue for either of them based on what happens. So, use whichever one works better for the game, I'd say- I myself would probably use Demiurge, but that's me.
 

push22

First Post
I was guessing that the version that was summoned in season 2 was either an avatar or an aspect, since when the entire being comes you end up with the giant galaxy swallowing doom hole.
 

Howdy push22! :)

push22 said:
I was guessing that the version that was summoned in season 2 was either an avatar or an aspect, since when the entire being comes you end up with the giant galaxy swallowing doom hole.

Maybe thats just the manifestation of its mouth.
 

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